Re: [dq-rules] Re: The CWT Draft

[Esko Halttunen <esko.halttunen@luukku.com>]

Hi--

> Excellent work, I think I will adopt it for my campaign.

Thanks. :-)


> Just some points about the weapons

It's good to get feedback like this. I'll go over it point by point. :-)

> 1)	The machete seems to be essentially a falchion, do we need it,
> could we have falchion/machete (or a note to that effect)?

Possibly. I took the machete as is from the PBA, it would not have even occurred to me to include it otherwise. I wanted everything in one document, so I didn't particularly worry about it. Many of the other weapons are also very similar, e.g. broadsword and schiavone


> 2)	I think the sizes for the longer swords are too short.  The
> Claymores in the Scottish museums are at least 4 feet long, rising to
> 6 feet, this should be classed as a 2 handed sword, so lets say 4-5ft
> for a claymore.  I would say, again from evidence of examples I've
> seen, that a 2 handed sword is anything from 5-7ft.  From what I have
> read the style of fighting was to whorl it around your head in a
> continuous sweep, swapping over your hands to keep it going.  This
> would (in by campaign) allow a person welding a two handed sword to
> repulse as a pole arm ? I wouldn't go near it that's for sure.  (The
> great Axe may also have been used in this way)

Could be I need to amend the descriptions then. You're probably right. I'm not an expert, so I go largely by what I've heard/read (not very extensively either), and the descriptions were written in a rather hurry so I could get the document finished. The reason why I didn't include lengths and more detailed Repulse rules is because those go more into the province of changing some of the combat mechanics rules and adding new ones (I already went some way in this by giving polearms Repulse), and that needs more discussion in the group as a whole. You use the more extensive Repulse rules in your own compilation of house rules, so it shouldn't be difficult to just adjust a copy of the CWT to reflect that. It's not a bad house rule, so if you wish, I suppose you could submit that as a candidate for wider adoption if you feel strongly enough for it.

Right now we have adaptability and easy extendability, so it should work everyone.


> 3)	How about different stats for 1 and 2 handed use (in mush the same
> way that longsword has A and B stats). We could have 2 handed use +1
> damage, but -5% strike chance and requiring an extra 2 PS for example.

Added layer of complexity that adds nothing useful in my opinion. It also reduces the effectiveness of a 2-handed strike if the PS requirement is increased, because then the +1 DM per 5 extra PS gets out of synch for the two different uses.


> 4)	I thought a sarissa was the Macedonian pike, and therefore was essentially the same as a pike

Greek/Macedonian pike, yes, but from what I heard it was shorter, more properly spear-length, but I could be wrong. I do agree that the sarissa as it stands in the list is rather redundant and superfluous, but the review process is for finding out and excising exactly that sort of stuff.


> 5)	I don't think the shaft of a pike was that thick, if it where it
> would be very heavy.  The ones I've seen start of about 2.5 inches in
> diameter at the butt and taper to about 1.5 inches at the head.  This
> shape conforms to the way wood grows and the extra thickness at the
> butt helps counter-balance the head. The head end may be re-enforced by metal strips.

Could be. Again, I'm no expert, but I do think the comment about thick shaft is justifed if pikes in general had thicker shafts than polearms. If not, it can be edited to be accurate.


> 6)	I would only allow the pole weapons to be used as a quarterstaff is
> the user also has quarterstaff skill

Good point, which I overlooked, but as you and John Davis said, in the demonstration at the Royal Armory, also the butts and shafts of the poleaxes were used, so that kind of thing is part of polearm training. It's not like that tertiary attack would be used very often in game terms, and training for the actual quarterstaff would be different anyway, so I wouldn't demand the character know both skills. Of course, if they don't know both and have to pick up the other weapon, there's the unranked penalty.


> 7)	A bill hook developed out of a bill hook ? this is a tool on a pole
> that is used to lop off thin branches well above the ground.  Smaller
> single handed ones are still used (eg by my father-in-law) to layer hedges

I know the tool you're talking about. Afaik it's developed from the scythe or its predecessors. It's also possible that both scythe and bill hook are actually descendants of an earlier farm implement/tool that had characteristics of both. I vaguely recall seeing some description to that effect in the San Marino Armoury. Of course, no way for me to go back and check, as I live in Finland.


> 8)	The English longbow was actually a self bow, although it used the
> natural composite nature of the sap and heart wood of the yew tree to
> increase power ? so I'm not sure whether I agree or disagree with your description

Actually, that's what I thought until two days ago too, but got myself straightened out as I read a discussion on cavalry archers vs foot archers that morphed into a discussion on bows and their mechanics. One of the participants (Lisanne Norman, you might have heard of her) had to study the history of archery and bows pretty extensively for her role in a professional UK re-enactment group named Corridors of Time. She went into great detail about the differences between composite and self bows and was emphatic about the distinction between long bow and longbow. She was actually trained by a member of the Guild of Bowyers and Archers who taught her to make arrows herself, and who is consulted by the Royal Armory as an expert on archery related things. You can take a look at the discussion itself at:
http://www.heavengames.com/cgi-bin/forums/display.cgi?action=ct&f=10,5697,0,30


> 9)	Doesn't a blowgun have to do at least 1 point effective damage
> ([20.3]) in order to introduce the poison into the victim?  This is
> something I've never understood in the "official" DQ rules

I didn't actually check that. I think it probably needs an added note that it only works on unarmored targets or suffers a serious penalty (like -20 to begin with) against armored targets that have some vulnerable spots (e.g. face)


> 10)	A general point.  Someone, I forget who, devised a system for use
> of weapons you're not skilled in, so (for example) if you can use one
> B class sword you have a reasonable idea of how to use other B class
> swords.   This has become even more necessary now the sub-division of
> the weapons has become tighter

That was in PBA, I think, so it'd be Rodger Thorm's handiwork. I actually use those rules myself, as they make a lot of sense. I don't know what the standing of the PBA is with the community in general, but I've understood that it has rather wide acceptance.


> These are really very minor points, mainly dealing with descriptions rather then the mechanics.

I don't mind, as I want the descriptions to be accurate too. They purport to be, so any corrections to factual mistakes (which I'm easily capable of) are more than welcome.


> I haven't looked at the oriental weapons as I don't really know that much
> about them, classical and medieval (particularly Scottish) is my thing

I'm sure people will pipe up about them if they disagree. With them, my primary source for descriptions has sadly been the AD&D Oriental Adventures (yes, I took the easiest route) , and the special rules for most of them are something I just cooked up on the fly. I expect those to generate some lively feedback too as people express their opinions.

> 
> Thanks for the work

You're welcome, and thanks for the feedback. :-)

Edi

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

dbarrass_2000 wrote:
> Excellent work, I think I will adopt it for my campaign.
> 
> Just some points about the weapons
> 1)	The machete seems to be essentially a falchion, do we need it,
> could we have falchion/machete (or a note to that effect)?
> 2)	I think the sizes for the longer swords are too short.  The
> Claymores in the Scottish museums are at least 4 feet long, rising to
> 6 feet, this should be classed as a 2 handed sword, so lets say 4-5ft
> for a claymore.  I would say, again from evidence of examples I've
> seen, that a 2 handed sword is anything from 5-7ft.  From what I have
> read the style of fighting was to whorl it around your head in a
> continuous sweep, swapping over your hands to keep it going.  This
> would (in by campaign) allow a person welding a two handed sword to
> repulse as a pole arm ? I wouldn't go near it that's for sure.  (The
> great Axe may also have been used in this way)
> 3)	How about different stats for 1 and 2 handed use (in mush the same
> way that longsword has A and B stats). We could have 2 handed use +1
> damage, but -5% strike chance and requiring an extra 2 PS for example.
> 4)	I thought a sarissa was the Macedonian pike, and therefore was
> essentially the same as a pike
> 5)	I don't think the shaft of a pike was that thick, if it where it
> would be very heavy.  The ones I've seen start of about 2.5 inches in
> diameter at the butt and taper to about 1.5 inches at the head.  This
> shape conforms to the way wood grows and the extra thickness at the
> butt helps counter-balance the head. The head end may be re-enforced
> by metal strips.
> 6)	I would only allow the pole weapons to be used as a quarterstaff is
> the user also has quarterstaff skill
> 7)	A bill hook developed out of a bill hook ? this is a tool on a pole
> that is used to lop off thin branches well above the ground.  Smaller
> single handed ones are still used (eg by my father-in-law) to layer hedges
> 8)	The English longbow was actually a self bow, although it used the
> natural composite nature of the sap and heart wood of the yew tree to
> increase power ? so I'm not sure whether I agree or disagree with your description
> 9)	Doesn't a blowgun have to do at least 1 point effective damage
> ([20.3]) in order to introduce the poison into the victim?  This is
> something I've never understood in the "official" DQ rules
> 10)	A general point.  Someone, I forget who, devised a system for use
> of weapons you're not skilled in, so (for example) if you can use one
> B class sword you have a reasonable idea of how to use other B class
> swords.   This has become even more necessary now the sub-division of
> the weapons has become tighter
> 
> These are really very minor points, mainly dealing with descriptions
> rather then the mechanics.  I haven't looked at the oriental weapons
> as I don't really know that much about them, classical and medieval
> (particularly Scottish) is my thing
> 
> Thanks for the work
> 
> David
> 

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