OT: Bias, Gender, Perception, Insults, Fun, and, oh what the heck, Beer, too.

[Larry <Kurgan@fastmail.fm>]

Hello Marty,


      I just wanted to toss out a last post to clarify our mutual
      positions/opinions. Nothing worth writing home to mom about. :)

      Oh yeah, if you're reading this, whomever you are, be warned,
      I'm goofing off and wasting space, and this is completely OT, so
      if you keep reading, it's your own fault, and if you complain,
      may the fleas of a thousand camels discover your nether regions.
      It's not exactly like the list is flooded and nearing any
      bandwidth limitations, and you can always skip this, so I doubt
      a little OT post or two once in awhile will cause you to require
      stitches or therapy. :) If you're bored and need entertainment,
      feel free to try and figure out when I'm being serious, and when
      I'm speaking tongue-in-cheek.

      
      I think the first thing that I absolutely must point out is that
      we may be agreeing and disagreeing at the same time, because
      we're both coming at it from our technical mindsets, with each
      of us having concluded the nature of the premise beforehand, and
      then proceeding from what we considered solid ground. After
      reading your posts, I now see that we may be chasing our
      grammatical tails. I say this because I'm a purist, as you
      keenly deduced, and my perception of the "bias" you cite is that
      it doesn't exist, that it is only prevalent because people make
      it so as a result of their own insecurities. The resultant
      "bias" is, to my line of reasoning, false in nature, because it
      was forged as the result of misinterpretation, and thus is
      technically invalid. This is not to say that a problem does not
      exist, but only that it is a self-induced hysteria, not a true
      external problem which merits unique identification. Your take,
      on the other hand, quickly accepts the veracity of the great
      unwashed and their furor, because the end result is the
      appearance of the bias, even though that bias is created solely
      by themselves. In layman's terms, what I'm saying is that it is
      a self-fulfilling phobia, and because it doesn't exist prior to
      its invention by those that believe it to be real, in my book
      that rules it out as valid, whereas you see the end-result and
      count that as proof of its existence. Fair enough, and I'll give
      you that point, and will agree that it does exist when viewed
      from that perspective.

      I also do weddings and bar-mitzvahs.
      

MG> 2 It's offensive. Even if you don't mean to be sexist, gender-biased 
MG> language can insult your readers.

      You may find this hard to swallow, or perhaps you'll be
      pleasantly surprised, but in either event, I have indeed studied
      this... phenomenon(?) over the years, and have come to a vastly
      different conclusion. My experience has shown me that most
      people don't care one way or the other, and accept the language
      as it was intended (thank God for small favors). Furthermore,
      the ones that do get upset break down into a rather interesting,
      and very telling, pattern. The group that dislikes male pronouns
      as neuter almost always are liberal, left-wing democratic sorts,
      and if not rallying against the English language, can usually be
      found on picket lines protesting something else they don't
      really know much about, but that has some facet that offends
      their sensibilities. In other words, they tend to be people that
      b!tch about lots of things on a regular basis. The group that
      dislikes mixed-gender usage tends to be more conservative, and
      come from the majority that usually doesn't care. They see it as
      not only being a bias, and very foolish, but actually an act
      that is creating the very bias the writing form is attempting to
      step around in its perceived "fairness." I have never met a
      single individual that applauded such mixed gender usage. The
      only ones that ever seem to talk positively about it are the
      very same individuals who are employing it, and are generally
      speaking aloud on the subject because they're desperately trying
      to give the appearance that they're being fair and sensitive to
      everyone's feelings, which, as anyone with an education, or even
      common sense based on real-life experience, knows, is literally
      impossible. You can't please everyone. Appease one facet, piss
      off another.


MG> Research indicates that "when you use the word man generically, people do
MG> tend to think male, and tend not to think female" (Miller and Swift 21).

      Naturally, but the key is: is that so bad? Or even the more rude
      response, "who cares?" :)


MG> Clearly, not everybody will perceive the problem or be affected by 
MG> it.

      Once again we come before you oh Lord, and give thanks for your
      wisdom and mercies...

      <Lighting candles>

      <Decorating a cake with the phrase 'J.C. you da man' on it>


MG> 3 It perpetuates stereotypes. Language influences our thoughts and
MG> beliefs.

    Ok, to be fair, here's where I not so much disagree as just feel
    sad for people in general, and a little superior without intending
    to. People, in general, often prove to be extremely weak, and that
    disturbs me to no end. I'm one of those types that, regardless of
    where I was raised, or the influences around me, would always, in
    most respects, grow into the same person. I'm "me" and always will
    be. I can take influences and pick and choose the elements I wish
    to absorb, or discard them without breaking a sweat. It has taken
    me man long years to figure out that this wasn't a common trait in
    people, so I now, in my old age <chuckle>, try to be more
    understanding of this, but I will never like it. My family was
    always confused that I was nothing like them, and couldn't
    understand how I was so different, without influences around me
    that would account for my habits and personality. I always knew
    why, but couldn't explain it to them. I have a sister that was
    adopted at birth. I found her almost thirty years later, and guess
    what? She's exactly the same as me, has many of the same traits
    and such. Her adoptive family was rich and high-class, but she
    always acted like she couldn't wait to shed the imposed culture
    and get back to her own. We'd both feel more comfortable at a
    biker bar than a catered affair. :)


MG> Statements like "A doctor should respect his patients" and 
MG> "A nurse should respect her patients" reinforce sexist stereotypes.

    I'd say it reenforces the odds. I don't see those statements as
    sexist, but merely making reference to what is most commonly found
    in those areas. Doctors are mostly men, percentage-wise, and
    nurses are most commonly female. No one held guns to their heads
    and told them which profession to choose.


MG> I think the solution has to come from the knowledge that the English 
MG> language seems to have been derived by men, for men. We are trained 
MG> from early on that God created the universe in His image and women 
MG> was created from man (and not a very good cut of meat <- attempted 
MG> humor there). I never went to church, and I know that one!

    Ok, I disagree with the first part, and can clarify the second.
    First, the language was created for mankind, not just those with
    extra appendages and associated fig leaves. This leads back into
    previous arguments, so I'll just leave it alone, since you know
    how I believe on this. Secondly, the bit about creating man in his
    own image wasn't literal. It's a rather lengthy explanation, so
    I'll skip it, and can go into more detail in a private email if
    you wish, but for now let me just say that it wasn't referring to
    physical form. No biggie; that's an extremely common mistake.


MG> Oh if only it were that easy. I long for the day when intelligence is 
MG> recognized as the universal currency of change and progress, rather 
MG> than Nielsen ratings or lowest common denominator popularity.

    Careful now. You're starting to sound like me. :)


MG> A truly savvy 'executive in charge of this stuff' would recognize 
MG> that the extra cost of manufacturing lefty items could be absorbed by 
MG> the profits from the righty sales. The whole shebang could be 
MG> invisible to the consumer. A lefty going into a store to buy a pair 
MG> of scissors does not care about economy of scale, he just wants to 
MG> cut paper.

    I totally agree with this reasoning. Unfortunately, it's
    considered bad business, because it detracts from the bottom line
    of profits, so it isn't done.


MG> Find two lefties, one taught how to write by a left handed teacher 
MG> and the other taught to write by a right handed teacher. Sit with 
MG> them and discuss their experiences.

    That would be rather interesting. My own experience had no outer
    influences. As an ambi, I, for whatever reason, found myself
    assigning a hand to different tasks as I went along. It was
    completely subconscious. I can write with either hand, but I
    always grab the pen with my right, simply out of habit. Over the
    years, I've become comfortable with each hand for different tasks,
    and despite being able to switch if needed, still prefer using the
    assigned hand for the chose task. As I mentioned before, I gave
    away my right-handed bow, because I shoot left-handed, but I could
    have taught myself to shoot with the alternate hand. I didn't,
    though, because it would just be too odd. Anyway, no I never had
    any external influence that dictated why I chose a specific hand
    for certain tasks. However, thinking about it now does bring back
    on element. I believe I chose the right hand for writing, because
    I noticed that punctuation was odd when writing left-handed. I
    didn't like the form it took on the paper, and even now, when I
    write with my left hand, it follows the same form as the right
    (none of that starting the letter at the bottom stuff).


MG> Hopefully we can agree to disagree here. I see your point, but do not 
MG> agree with it. I am an engineer and I understand the need to correct 
MG> problems. That might be why I am better able to cope with the change. 
MG> Creation of a VALID neutral pronoun will not invalidate the written 
MG> works of history any more than abolishing slavery and the 
MG> implementation of the equal rights amendment invalidated the Civil 
MG> War or the Tom Sawyer. At the time, they were valid pints of view.

    I think you're not looking at history or the big picture here. I
    do not believe you will ever see a neuter pronoun that will be
    considered valid, and even if one were created and enforced, you'd
    have a riot on your hands if you tried to re-publish classic works
    with the words changed to reflect it. Correcting problems is fine,
    but most people do not consider this a problem to be changed. In
    our current market, and I do not see this changing any time in the
    foreseeable future, no editor in his right mind would submit a
    manuscript as finished if it carried mixed or neuter pronouns, and
    no publisher would touch it, either. The only times I've seen it
    done are when it's a company producing their own material, and
    doing their own publishing. White Wolf commonly does this with
    many of their books, and as a result, my shelves have a distinct
    lack of their material. I've purchased books, gotten home, and
    then spotted a nice little qualifier inside the front cover that
    explained how they were trying not to offend anyone, and so were
    employing mixed gender terms to appease the faint of heart, and
    those books went straight in the trash, unread, and I never bought
    another thing by those companies. I also now check everything
    before I buy it.


MG> (Please note that the Civil War was not fought over slavery - it was 
MG> certainly AN issue, but not THE issue).

    Oh wow. I've got a few hundred civil war reenactors I could
    introduce you to that would argue this with you all night long.
    Again, perception is definitely part of the issue. The war was
    building on the horizon, but slavery was the final straw that
    triggered it. Only a very few northern leaders recalled the other
    issues, though. If you were to ask any of the troops why they were
    fighting, they'd tell you it was to free the slaves. That's all
    *they* knew about it, and it was enough. Now, ask any southern
    soldier at the time why he was fighting, and his answer would have
    been, "We're fightin' fer our rats!" (Translation: We're fighting
    for our rights.)


MG> I think what prompted me to write the first email was the term 
MG> 'pandering'. I do not think it is pandering because, as I have 
MG> written too many times today, the bias does exist.

    I can't help but see it as pandering, or at least caving in from
    fear. If you know you're right in something, stand firm, don't
    start doing something inaccurate or wrong simply to appease a
    group that doesn't have the stamina to learn the truth about their
    own issue before campaigning against it. That just brings you down
    to their level.


MG> Languages evolve, and attempting to halt that process will kill the
MG> beauty of the language faster than fixing the problem.

    I agree somewhat, but I hate to see it happen. As the language
    "evolves" it tends to wither and become corrupted. Most slang
    terms result from a simple lack of education, combined with a
    laziness of speech. People will make up words when they don't know
    the proper ones to be used. Eventually, some of them catch on, and
    over a long period of time, when enough people employ them in
    daily speech, they become "official." I don't see that as a good
    thing, just a bastardization of the language. I'm almost glad that
    Latin is considered a dead language, because no one is attempting
    to change it. Try sitting down and writing the most beautiful poem
    you can create. Then go back and compare it to a laundry list
    that's written in old English. We've lost so much already in just
    a few centuries. I'm glad I won't be alive to see where it goes in
    a few hundred more years. I think I'd cry.


MG> Certainly introduction of certain slang terms hinders the beauty, if
MG> you know what I mean, dawg.

    I hears ya, G. Dass gone be awful not b'yootful when dey changes
    it to yall's rap and English gets kicked to da curb. Foo.

    I suddenly feel the urge to shower.


MG> but much of that stuff is just, you know, like totally a fad.

    Fer shure, dude. Heh, gnarly.


MG> Much of the time, the use of too much slang is a sign of poor
MG> education or just ignorance

    Ebonics, anyone? (gag)
    

MG>  - it can also be sign of cultural identification.

    Isn't that just sooooo sad and pathetic, too?


MG> I could counter with the argument that if I am pandering, then you 
MG> must be on the side of the 'language purist' or perhaps we should 
MG> call you an 'English Supremist' (The Webster Klux Clan - more 
MG> attempted humor).

    I shall wear that distinctive badge with honor, sirruh!


MG> By the way, I am not calling you either of those things,

    Go ahead. I felt a surge of pride when you did. :) I'm almost
    certain I could hear bagpipes in the background belting out
    Amazing Grace.


MG> nor do I have a 'real problem' with this.

    Good for you! We'll make a snob out of you yet. <Chortle> I'll
    look forward to pinning your lapel when the time comes. At
    graduation, you will be required to burn an effigy of someone that
    promotes bad language usage (I always torch rap singers), but
    anything from the Oprah book club will do nicely, too.


MG> For what it is worth, I am a caucasian male of average height,
MG> dark hair and brown eyes.

    I'm a 'Breed. Half Indian (Seneca) and half Scottish. 6'3" with
    dark hair (naturally). I'm also from New York, originally. I
    mention that because both factors have taught me lessons that
    apply to our discourse. Back home we would toss around insults
    like they were casual words, and nobody cared. Everyone had much
    thicker skin back then, unlike today where everyone ends up on a
    therapist's couch at the slightest negative comment. PC crap makes
    me wanna hurl. You may find it interesting to know that I, and
    many like me, actually prefer the term American Indian over Native
    American, which drives the PC crowd nuts (that's half the fun).
    It's because American Indian is descriptive and distinctive,
    whereas Native American conflicts with logic. If a black guy was
    born in Utah, he's a native American, so it's kind of silly to
    imply otherwise (which is why I hate the term African American,
    too. If you were born here, dammit, you're an American. If you
    wanna have another country as part of your title, move there). I
    once had a good friend catch me off-guard with a racial slur. He
    was as white as they come, blond hair, blue eyes. He waited until
    we were having lunch, and I had a mouthful of food, looked me
    straight in the eye, and called me a prairie nigger. I spewed, and
    about choked to death, I was laughing so hard. Hadn't heard that
    one before. So, after getting him back good with my own little
    sneaky verbiage (I got him to spew a few minutes later), I decided
    to go see a friend of mine, another Indian, and tell him about it.
    I walk up with a grin on my face, look him straight in the eye,
    and say "prairie nigger!" He almost decked me. :) So yeah, it's
    all a matter of perception, but I'm still going to stand on the
    fact that I'm right, because I'm always right, and my will is
    eternal. <Chuckle>


MG> I assume that you will agree that having a firm foundation for the
MG> language will make it better.

    I'm just dying to make a Monty Python joke here, but don't know if
    you're fluent in Pythonese or the Knights Who Say Ni!


Best regards,

   Larry                         mailto:Kurgan@Fastmail.fm