I am also going through all "Canonical" DQ materials that I have and exacting Hints of Religion from them, I think that we should not directly contradict anything that the authors introduced in the game system without making note of it.

 

For example under Aspects it mentions "Some mana is invested by one of the Great Powers into the soul, or life-force, of every being born into a DragonQuest world."

 

JohnR

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Richard [mailto:demon_star2002@yahoo.com]
Sent: Monday, May 12, 2003 9:10 AM
To: DragonQuestCathedral@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [DragonQuestCathedral] Re: A good online resource

 

Thanks very much for that! Hopefully we can knock our heads together
and produce something that has been long, long overdue. But where to
begin... (see my next post for that answer)


Later,
R.

--- In DragonQuestCathedral@yahoogroups.com, "John Rauchert"
wrote:
> I will put a link in the links area but this is a great online
> resource talking about religion in a fantasy setting
>
> The Mythopoet's Manual by Loren J. Miller
> http://www.rpgmud.com/WorldBuilding/Mythopoets/tmm.html

ps- VERY cool site! ^^^^^

 

While using the 3e domains may be a good idea as our ��Starting Point��, it immediately puts us face-to-face with a copyright violation, so re-distributing our DQ religion system may become problematic in the future.

 

What I propose is we use the domains right now as a stand-in for our final concept, which may eventually evolve away from domains as they are presented in D&D as we go on.

 

I will have to look closer at them when I get home.

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Richard [mailto:demon_star2002@yahoo.com]
Sent: Monday, May 12, 2003 9:57 AM
To: DragonQuestCathedral@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [DragonQuestCathedral] The Golden Rule(s): A god's influence

 

"A god's influence sphere is defined as of what she or he is the god"

Since the work has already been done for me (as far as I'm
concerned), I'm planning on ripping off D&D 3e's Domains.

Now, while this may seem like an El Cheapo thing to do, my reasoning
is that since there are portions of 3e that are clearly (to me,
anyway) cribbed from DQ, I can crib right back from them since I have
no way, really, of knowing how much un-published DQ material that TSR
ended up with found it's way into D&D. I read somewhere online that
they did that with AD&D 2nd, but I never played that version.

I know all this may seem like a cop out on my part, but that line
above is pretty self explanatory. No need to embelish on the
philosophy, and I've found a suitable game mechanic to stand in.
However, don't let that stop anybody from posting their thoughts on
the subject. If you have something better, hit me with it.


Later,
R.

 

Not me, but as part of a general information gathering I will try to pull together anything related into a single resource, I have web space available, and we can load stuff to our group files area.

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Richard [mailto:demon_star2002@yahoo.com]
Sent: Monday, May 12, 2003 10:20 AM
To: DragonQuestCathedral@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [DragonQuestCathedral] Re: The Golden Rule(s): A god's influence

 

Agreed. Although, for my purposes, I was basically just using the
Domain names and kinda going from there on my own, which, in this
case, just meant grouping appropriate spells under each Domain
header. I don't remember how close that is to 3e. I don't have those
books anymore- I'm just kinda going off memory there.

Also, didn't someone (you?) have a similar set-up that was posted pre-
3e? I've gone through a lot of different info in the last few days
and I don't remember where I saw it.


Later,
R.

 

Demons (and their lesser brethren) are described as coming from the Seventh Plane.  It seems that they are allied with "The Powers of Darkness" and generally their behaviour is what would be classified as "Evil".  It may be that they creatures from another plane that worship the Powers of Darkness.  I would say that they are lesser in power than Gods.

 

I side stepped these issues in my magic system based on belief, making demons a Mana based construct based off the beliefs of the summoner doing the ritual.  If he believes that what he will get is a pointy-fanged demon with X abilities by doing Y ritual then he gets a pointy-fanged demon with X abilities.

 

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Richard [mailto:demon_star2002@yahoo.com]
Sent: Monday, May 12, 2003 10:13 AM
To: DragonQuestCathedral@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [DragonQuestCathedral] The Golden Rule(s): A god's power

 

"Except in exceedingly unusual circumstances, no character can
withstand a god's power without the protection of another god".

I think the place to begin here is with the Demons, devils, and imps
found in the College of Greater Summoning. I'm sure I'm not laying
anything new on anybody with this. As we get into the religion aspect
of this, it may become necessary to add a characteristic or two to a
god's write-up. Or maybe not.

I wonder how the SPI boys thought that something so obviously Judeo-
Christian based as Greater Summoning would fit in with a wholly
fabricated pantheon. Like, are these demons the antagonists for every
god of Alusia? I guess we should save that for a different thread.
 
Bottom line- are DQ gods on an equal level to or more powerful than
the DQ demons?


Later,
R.


 

As well as, Geas, Minor Curse and Remove Curse.

 

I would see that gods would place a Geas on someone who is a faithful worshipper in most cases.

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Richard [mailto:demon_star2002@yahoo.com]
Sent: Monday, May 12, 2003 11:54 AM
To: DragonQuestCathedral@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [DragonQuestCathedral] The Golden Rule(s): Every god

 

"Every god should be assumed to have the power of Full Geas (see
83.2)".

And, it would follow, Major Curse.


Later,
R.

 

Here are a listing of Aspects, Archetypes, Domains, Spheres of Influence, Dominions (whatever you want to call them) from various sources.

 

GURPS RELIGION 24-25

 

Attributes

The purposes of the deity in the game world, the deity's powers, strengths

and weaknesses, how the deity views its followers, what it asks of them, how

actively it interferes in the "real" world -the GM must decide all of this and

more for each of the major powers he creates.

 

Archetypes

Deities are frequently built on archetypes: primordial images, characters,

or ideals of a society common enough to be considered universal. These may

be elemental forces such as fire, water, earth or air, or facets of nature,

embodying the characteristics of animals, plants, rivers, the sky, the sun, the

moon, etc. Other archetypes are more abstract, concepts that represent the

variety of human experience, such as mother, father, truth, justice, beauty,

heroism, ferocity, or death. The true measure of an archetype is its ability to

provoke the same feelings or reactions from a wide variety of different people.

Listed below are some common archetypes, grouped roughly according to

level of abstraction. These are presented as examples designed to stimulate

further thought. Under no condition should this be considered a complete list

of archetypes, nor a listing of necessary forces. Various archetypes might easi-

ly be combined in a single deity. Even the lines between categories are blurry

at best.

 

Primal Forces: Creation, destruction, order, chaos, fate, prophecy or ora-

cles, destiny, time, luck, death.

 

Abstract Natural Forces: Birth, death, undeath, light, dark, air, fire, water,

earth, sky, sea, nature, animals, plants, spring, summer, fall, winter.

 

Specific Natural Forces: Dawn, twilight, day, night, sun, moon, stars (espe-

cially morning or evening star), north, south, east, west, wind, rain, weather,

thunder, lightning, rivers, lakes, mountains, volcanoes, trees, forests, flowers,

deserts, snakes, dragons, birds, insects, magic.

 

Abstract Societal Concepts: Art, beauty, smithing, carnage, crone, dance,

disease, famine, fertility, guardian, handicrafts, harvest, healing, home and

hearth, hunting, illusion, judgment, justice, law, learning, love, maiden, mercy,

messenger, midwife, mother, music, oath or pledge, poetry, politics, peace,

pestilence, prosperity, revenge, sickness, trade, victory, victim, war, warrior,

wealth, wine, wisdom, witch.

 

Historical Personages: Deified historical persona, most often with associat-

ed myths and legends of their deeds. Ancestors, heroes, kings, saviors, saints,

representatives of state and nation.

 

3e Players Handbook 162-165

 

D&D Domains

 

Air

Animal

Chaos

Death

Destruction

Earth

Evil

Fire

Good

Healing

Knowledge

Law

Luck

Magic

Plant

Protection

Strength

Sun

Travel

Trickery

War

Water

 

 

THE PRIMAL ORDER 90-91

 

 

Spheres of Influence

 

Influence is to be measured not by the extent it covers, but by its

kind. -Channing

 

A sphere of influence is an idea, object, activity, or phllosophy with which a

particular deity is strongly associated. Pele's sphere of influence is volcanoes;

Poseidon's spheres include horses and the sea. In this chapter we will address

the definition of a sphere of influence, why a deity might want one in the first

place, how a deity goes about defining one, how to develop abilities within

that sphere, and how much these abilities might cost in terms of primal flux

or primal base.

 

A sphere of influence is an aspect of reality that the deity has specifically

staked out as his or her own. In more common terms, a sphere of influence

is often what the deity is known as "god of." However, this isn't a hard and

fast rule. Some deities will have spheres of influence that are not quite as well

publicized. There aren't many good reasons for downplaying a sphere, but

as we know, deities can be somewhat ineffable. For instance, many stories

in Greek mythology associate Aphrodite with beauty, so beauty might well be

one of her spheres of influence, though love is the most famous.

 

Development of a sphere of influence requires extensive research in the

area, in addition to becoming associated with the concept in the minds of

worshipers, the public at large, and other deities. All deities can manipulate

the universe, but the better they understand certain aspects of it, the better

their control over those aspects. A deity who studies only the attributes of war

or magic has much more knowledge in these areas and thus more control and

power than other deities of equal strength.

 

Ultimately, however, the complete development of a sphere of influence

requires one final step: the establishment of an actual metaphysical overlap

between the deity and the chosen sphere of influence, so that the deity and

the concept become fundamentally connected to each other. This is more

than just being associated with the concept; it involves actually becoming an

underlying part of the concept. The deity must become so entrenched in the

concept that wherever the concept exists, the deity's influence will be felt.

On rare occasions, this final meld between deity and sphere of influence

might happen without anybody noticing, but by far the most common catalyst

is a heroic quest, some event or task that defines and establishes a deity's right

to claim his or her sphere of influence. After Pele had prepared herself for a

position as a volcano goddess, her defeat of the previous owner of Mauna Loa

was the heroic quest that established her sphere of influence. The fact that the

process also netted her a home plane was a nice bonus.

 

Deities have three basic reasons for wanting a sphere of influence. First, the

deity will be able to gain additional abilities, more powerful than the standard

divine-level abilities. Sphere of influence abilities are more powerful because

they can extend to any location where the associated concept exists; this

often allows a deity to have influence in an area that the deity is normally

prohibited from accessing, such as a non-intervention plane or a person or

place protected by a primal shield. A deity whose sphere of influence is weather

can affect the weather on any plane, and a deity whose sphere of influence

is death will be able to collect any soul that is not being directly absorbed or

pulled by another deity, for example.

 

Second, having a sphere of influence attracts followers who are seeking

guidance, protection, or assistance within that sphere, or those who identify

closely with the sphere. A nation going to war might choose to honor a war

deity, while a student of magic would feel a close identification with a deity

whose sphere of influence involves magic. Students with upcoming midterms

might try a burnt offering of Post-ItNnotes to Mnemosyne, the Goddess of

Memory.

 

Finally, a deity of higher rank may order another deity to develop a sphere

of influence. This is particularly true in the case of godlings; the deity who

ascended someone has a natural interest in seeing that godling advance in

power. In this case, the godling may not have much choice over what his

or her sphere of influence should be; the ascending deity may already have

something in mind. The Greek Muses, a series of demigodessess with related

spheres of influence, may have been under such orders.

 

You may rule that the death of a prominent deity will have some sort of impact

within his or her sphere of influence. According to Babylonian mythology,

when Ishtar was imprisoned in the underworld by her sister Eresh-kigal, love

ceased to exist in the universe; humans became apathetic, animals ceased

their mating, and even the plants began to die. This, of course, might be a

little extreme on a universal scale, but could certainly be a reasonable side

effect on a plane where the deity was represented by many worshipers. Of

course, the decision to incorporate such a side effect, and how extensive to

make it, is up to you; we do recommend, however, that the effect only be

drastic for greater deities, and that other deities with overlapping spheres of

influence be allowed to counter the effect to some extent.

 

As deities increase in power, they gain a stronger influence on reality, which

allows them to control more and more areas in their own names. The number

of spheres of influence that a deity can claim will depend on the deity's divine

rank; the number of abilities a deity can have within a given sphere of influence,

however, is theoretically unlimited. Demigods and supported demigods may

only have a single sphere of influence; as mentioned earlier, godlings with

a sphere of influence become demigods. Lesser deities may have up to two

spheres of influence; greater deities may have up to three. Supreme deities are

allowed up to four spheres of influence.

 

If a deity loses rank and ends up with more spheres of influence than is

appropriate for the new rank, no spheres of influence will be lost. The deity

may not be able to come up with enough primal to exercise all of his or her

sphere of influence abilities, but the abilities will still be there in case things

improve. The deity will not be able to pick up any new spheres of influence,

however, until he or she has attained a rank that would allow this.

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: John Rauchert [mailto:john.rauchert@sait.ab.ca]
Sent: Monday, May 12, 2003 10:11 AM
To: 'DragonQuestCathedral@yahoogroups.com'
Subject: RE: [DragonQuestCathedral] The Golden Rule(s): A god's influence

 

What I propose is we use the domains right now as a stand-in for our final concept, which may eventually evolve away from domains as they are presented in D&D as we go on.

 

I will have to look closer at them when I get home.

I find faith or piety a little too subtle for a characteristic.  The thing I like about DQ is that it doesn't have an Intelligence Stat, I could never figure out how I could role-play a 18 Int with my 10 Int Brain (D&D).

 

To take a lead from MA: Magic Aptitude is a measure of a character's ability to harness and direct magical energies, I think that if we are to add a stat it would be something like a measure of a character's ability to act as a conduit for divine energies (Divine Aptitude).

 

Now how much faith or piety has little to do with it. If you have a high Divine Aptitude you make a great vessel through which the gods can work.  Just as Mages have a lower Magic Resistance, you have a low Resistance to Divine Entities using you for their Cabana Boy.  It may be that you become a better conduit through ritual observances and purification rituals, but you have a spark of the divine whether you want it or not.  The only protection you got is to align yourself with one of them quick, so they can tell others mess with this one and you mess with me.

 

JohnR

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Richard [mailto:demon_star2002@yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2003 10:25 AM
To: DragonQuestCathedral@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [DragonQuestCathedral] Piety

 

I think there should be a characteristic that shows the level
of "faith" a character has in their religion/god and that would apply
to priest the way Magical Aptitude does to magi.

I'll bet you're wondering what I think it should be called, right? ;)

The thing I'm kinda stuck on at this point is if it should be a
figured characteristic (like FT from EN), a distributed one, or
rolled (like PB is). I'm shooting for distributed, but only if it
doesn't screw everything else up.

I suppose making it a figured stat might work since I can define the
scale however I like. WP seems like the stat to work form there.

The randomly generated characteristic (I would have said "rolled",
but this *is* DQ we're dealing with lol), is the easiest, but I think
it's important enough not to be random.

Either way, it has to work into a system of religion somehow and
that's where I'm kinda hung up. "The higher the number, the closer
you are to God"- that's all I have on that one.

I'd like to hear what you guys think about this. Lemme know.


Later,
R.


 

There is some precedence for this in the Judeo-Christian Tradition.  For example: Saul of Tarsus http://www.execulink.com/~wblank/saultars.htm

 

JohnR

-----Original Message-----
From: John Rauchert [mailto:john.rauchert@sait.ab.ca]
Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2003 12:51 PM
To: 'DragonQuestCathedral@yahoogroups.com'
Subject: RE: [DragonQuestCathedral] Piety

 

I find faith or piety a little too subtle for a characteristic.  The thing I like about DQ is that it doesn't have an Intelligence Stat, I could never figure out how I could role-play a 18 Int with my 10 Int Brain (D&D).

 

To take a lead from MA: Magic Aptitude is a measure of a character's ability to harness and direct magical energies, I think that if we are to add a stat it would be something like a measure of a character's ability to act as a conduit for divine energies (Divine Aptitude).

 

Now how much faith or piety has little to do with it. If you have a high Divine Aptitude you make a great vessel through which the gods can work.  Just as Mages have a lower Magic Resistance, you have a low Resistance to Divine Entities using you for their Cabana Boy.  It may be that you become a better conduit through ritual observances and purification rituals, but you have a spark of the divine whether you want it or not.  The only protection you got is to align yourself with one of them quick, so they can tell others mess with this one and you mess with me.

 

JohnR

 

 

Bruce echoes my feelings.

 

A high Magical Aptitude meant that I was better at Magic in terms of the game mechanics.  What type of Mage and how I roleplayed that situation was not based on that stat, it was merely used for mechanical things.

 

JohnR "Agree to Disagree"

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Bruce Probst [mailto:bprobst@netspace.net.au]
Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2003 5:32 AM
To: DragonQuestCathedral@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [DragonQuestCathedral] Piety

 

I don't think "piety" should be measured by anything other than the player's
ability to roleplay.  A player who can't demonstrate that his character
shows appropriate reverence for his diety of choice should be penalised (in
XP) accordingly.  (Similarly, a player who can act appropriately should not
be penalised in game terms for having a low stat.)

Stats should be left to purely "mechanical" things.  Leave everything else
to roleplaying.