DragonQuestCathedral Archive Posts 91-120

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91 From: green_skies_at_night <green_skies_at_night@y...>
Date: Thu Aug 21, 2003 5:41am
Subject: Re: Any Feedback?

Just a suggestion. It seems to me there are several different threads and not all of us even know where to look for them, let alone have a clue they even exist. Maybe this was a private discussion? Seems to me that it might be better if everyone tries to meet in the same place, or something. Be nice to get everyone in one room, so to speak. I just found this thread this morning (and quite by accident). Nightwing

92 From: dbarrass_2000 <david.barrass@e...>
Date: Thu Aug 21, 2003 9:12am
Subject: Re: Any Feedback?

This isn't a private discussion, feel free to comment. Your point about the dilution of effort into many threads is a valid one and it was pointed out when this thread began DQ-rules was probalby the best place for it. but here we are. I am intending to post the next version in DQ-rules to get a wider audience, but its been a nice focused frendly group to get the creation started David > Just a suggestion. It seems to me there are several different threads > and not all of us even know where to look for them, let alone have a > clue they even exist. Maybe this was a private discussion? Seems to > me that it might be better if everyone tries to meet in the same > place, or something. Be nice to get everyone in one room, so to > speak. I just found this thread this morning (and quite by accident). > > Nightwing

93 From: Richard <demon_star2002@y...>
Date: Thu Aug 21, 2003 1:25pm
Subject: Re: Any Feedback?

Pretty much what David said. Basically, I started this group because, in the entire life of the DQ Rules group, no one had even come close to the subject we discuss here. And, while this group started out with a fair amount of activity, the second I disagreed with a couple of members about rules philosophy all communication ceased except for David and myself. The both of us have been practically begging for feedback and got none. Even I had to drop out for a while, but I'm back in a limited capacity. So, Dave- I'll have something for you in the next couple of days. Nightwing- you owe it to yourself to read his religion rules. Their pretty terrific, imho. We're both looking forward to your input. --- In DragonQuestCathedral@yahoogroups.com, "green_skies_at_night" <green_skies_at_night@y...> wrote: > Just a suggestion. It seems to me there are several different threads > and not all of us even know where to look for them, let alone have a > clue they even exist. Maybe this was a private discussion? Seems to > me that it might be better if everyone tries to meet in the same > place, or something. Be nice to get everyone in one room, so to > speak. I just found this thread this morning (and quite by accident). > > Nightwing

94 From: tmckelvey77089 <tmckelvey77089@y...>
Date: Thu Aug 21, 2003 2:32pm
Subject: Re: Any Feedback?

I'm new to the group. Just saw some traffic over at the DQN group and followed it here. I think the religion document is the best treatment I've seen so far. I'd like to compare it to J. Kehane's version when he posts it, since his is somewhat based on the original SSI-DQ docs. Other than a few grammar/typos yours looks great. I'm curious, what was the rules philosophy disagreement about anyway? Spectre --- In DragonQuestCathedral@yahoogroups.com, "Richard" <demon_star2002@y...> wrote: > Pretty much what David said. Basically, I started this group because, > in the entire life of the DQ Rules group, no one had even come close > to the subject we discuss here. And, while this group started out with > a fair amount of activity, the second I disagreed with a couple of > members about rules philosophy all communication ceased except for > David and myself. > > The both of us have been practically begging for feedback and got > none. Even I had to drop out for a while, but I'm back in a limited > capacity. > So, Dave- I'll have something for you in the next couple of days. > Nightwing- you owe it to yourself to read his religion rules. Their > pretty terrific, imho. > We're both looking forward to your input. > > > --- In DragonQuestCathedral@yahoogroups.com, "green_skies_at_night" > <green_skies_at_night@y...> wrote: > > Just a suggestion. It seems to me there are several different threads > > and not all of us even know where to look for them, let alone have a > > clue they even exist. Maybe this was a private discussion? Seems to > > me that it might be better if everyone tries to meet in the same > > place, or something. Be nice to get everyone in one room, so to > > speak. I just found this thread this morning (and quite by accident). > > > > Nightwing

95 From: Martin Gallo <martimer@m...>
Date: Thu Aug 21, 2003 3:23pm
Subject: Re: Any Feedback?

For what it is worth, I would like to comment. I have not had sufficient time to peruse the materials to make a valid or useful comment. I do like the idea of adding religion of some sort to DQ. I have toyed with the idea in the past but have not had a chance to game DQ so have not implemented it. Marty -- "If you haven't got your health, at least you have something to talk about." "They say that everything happens for a reason. I am just tired of that reason being to make me unhappy or embarrassed." "You can't make a baby in a month using nine women! But it sounds like it would be fun to try."

96 From: John Rauchert <john.rauchert@s...>
Date: Thu Aug 21, 2003 3:23pm
Subject: Re: Any Feedback?

I know that I did disagree on some aspects of the system as presented but the main reason I stopped my input was that I have been under a time crunch at work lately (worms and virus are not helping my after work job much either). I did not feel I had time to add constructively or substantially to the work, so I did not contribute. JohnR --- In DragonQuestCathedral@yahoogroups.com, "tmckelvey77089" <tmckelvey77089@y...> wrote: > > I'm curious, what was the rules philosophy disagreement about anyway? > > Spectre >

97 From: green_skies_at_night <green_skies_at_night@y...>
Date: Thu Aug 21, 2003 6:02pm
Subject: Red Dragon Inn on Yahoo!

Visit Red Dragon Inn:1 (a chat room for DragonQuest) on yahoo.

98 From: dbarrass_2000 <david.barrass@e...>
Date: Fri Aug 22, 2003 1:38am
Subject: Re: Any Feedback?

> I'm new to the group. Just saw some traffic over at the DQN group > and followed it here. I think the religion document is the best > treatment I've seen so far. I'd like to compare it to J. Kehane's > version when he posts it, since his is somewhat based on the original > SSI-DQ docs. Yes, me too. I particularly interested in a miracle system as the way I'm doing it is a bit of a cop-out > Other than a few grammar/typos yours looks great. My mother was an English teacher, my spelling and grammer were a source of dispare to her :--). I'd be interested in any, even the most trivial, corrections > I'm curious, what was the rules philosophy disagreement about anyway? My own recolection wss that there was a good-natured and mature discussion about the use of a piety stat. We eventually decided against it, interesting that JK's system includes (if I read his post correctly) 2 :--) David

99 From: john_kahane <jkahane@c...>
Date: Fri Aug 22, 2003 8:20am
Subject: Hello, All :)

Hullo, folks, Well, I've just joined this mailing list after having learned about it only a day or two ago. It's a treat to be here, but I wish I had known about this list back when I first started working on the Priest skill and material to cover religion in my own DQ campaign some 18+ years ago. In any event, it's nice to be here, and I'll be commenting on a couple of posts from the archives here, until I catch up with the mail. :) JohnK

100 From: john_kahane <jkahane@c...>
Date: Fri Aug 22, 2003 8:28am
Subject: Re: Spells in Religion

Hullo, David, --- In DragonQuestCathedral@yahoogroups.com, "dbarrass_2000" <david.barrass@e...> wrote: > Richard - why do you object to spells in religion? Probably for some of the same reasons that I do. :) Basically, the DQ material on religion that I have heard about and seen (granted this was many years ago) was always meant to keep religion and magic separate from one another. I don't remember where I've seen it in the various editions of the game, but there were a couple of places where this is hinted at. > I have always assumed that his was how magical religions worked > This is from hints:- > > In Thieves World already posted:- > "...it is suggested that these priests be granted quasi-clerical > abilities (as in pagan and early Catholic legend). These rely heavily > on ritual-- in both senses of the word-- and personal magic, which is > intended to directly affect an individual (the Healer skill [55] and > curses [84.3 et seq.] are good examples of this). Presumably, spells > which are scaled-down versions of the liege god's special powers are > part of the priest's repertoire". > Spells are explicitly mentioned. Granted this is true, but remember the material in the Thieves' World boxed set was meant to only apply if running in that particular game world. This is the same material that allows one to create Mages with more than one College to begin with, something that seems to be in direct contradiction with the way the Colleges were set up in the main game. This may, of course, be pure speculation, but it is certainly my interpretation of the Thieves' World boxed set material. > The Earth Magics college has two forms Pacific (as in peaceful not > the ocean) and druidic. Although the connection with the druid's > religion is not explicitly mentioned it is surely what the designers > had in mind. > The College of Black magics itself is clearly based on Witchcraft � > believed to incorporate elements of Anglo-Saxon (and maybe a bit of > Celtic) pagan cults This college also contains many features I would > expect a religion to have (eg blessings and curses). Actually, I would beg to differ with you here slightly. Black Magic certainly has some elements of the darker sides of witchcraft, notably the Crowley elements to it, but it is in no way representative of witchcraft as a whole. It certainly has a literary basis with the dark arts, but I suspect many practicing witches and warlocks from the 1980s would have objected to the connection to what they do on the basis of this College. > Most of the magic users in legend are described as Priest(esses) and > they seem to cast things that would be best modelled as spells. Agreed, but there is a difference between a Priest of one of the pagan religions and a Priest of the Christian faith. Arthurian legend is a good example of this. However, more to the point, one could argue that a true Priest or Priestess receives their abilities from a Divine source, whereas magic stems from the mana that surrounds us all. Miracles don't and should not reduce Fatigue in game terms. That makes them different from magic entirely. Imnsho. :) Just my 2 cf, of course. :) JohnK

101 From: john_kahane <jkahane@c...>
Date: Fri Aug 22, 2003 8:34am
Subject: Re: The Golden Rule(s)

Hullo, David, --- In DragonQuestCathedral@yahoogroups.com, "dbarrass_2000" <david.barrass@e...> wrote: > All of this prompted me to try to find the reference that started me > off on DQ religion 20ish years ago, and found it in the first page of > the magic section. As this appears in the rule book (2nd and 3rd > editions) this must be a very important clue to what the designers > were thinking about religion > > 2nd SPI edition, Section 25. last part. (Page 30) > > Consecrated Ground: Any ground that has been consecrated to the > service of the "Powers of Light" as defined by the GM is consecrated > ground and affects the abilities of all characters to resist magic. > There is no College specifically dedicated to the Powers of Light, > because it is assumed that they are nonmagical in nature and are, in > effect, opposed to magic. Most temples and monasteries and some > graveyards will be consecrated ground. Barrows, pagan temples (those > in which magic forms part of the ritual) and the dwellings of magical > beings can never be consecrated ground. Thanks for finding the reference here, for me, David. That was one of the ones that I was thinking of in terms of the whole magic vs. non-magic debate about Priests. > We can get several things from this (ordered from concrete to > speculation) > 1) There are two forms of religion a) Powers of > light "nonmagical in nature and are, in effect, opposed to magic." > And b) "Barrows, pagan temples (those in which magic forms part of > the ritual)" I would agree with this, most definitely. :) > 2) Pagan religion involves the use of magic Agreed. :) > 3) Pagan religion involves ritual. Spells and talents are not > mentioned, either for or against, and the section does not rule out > the spell and talent use as part of the religious rituals No, it does not. But there is a clear indication here that the pagan temples and elements of magic mentioned above owe a clear allegiance of sorts to the Powers of Darkness, i.e., the DQ Demons, and that would suggest more of a connection to magic. The Powers of Light are clearly meant to be the deities/gods/goddesses/etc. within this framework. > 4) The use of the word pagan to describe magical religions is > interesting; this implies that the opposite, Powers of Light, non- > pagan did the designers have Christianity in mind when hey wrote this? Very likely. You gotta remember when this game was written. :) > 5) The implied separation of magical beings from the Powers of > Light. Is this religion for the non inherently magical races such as > humans? Beats me...but it makes for interesting speculation, doesn't it? I suspect the priestess associated with (a form of) witchcraft would be more what was in mind for the pagan temples and that aspect of this, but there is no real way to know. And where do you fit shamanism into the equation? <g> JohnK

102 From: dbarrass_2000 <david.barrass@e...>
Date: Fri Aug 22, 2003 9:56am
Subject: Re: Spells in Religion

> Probably for some of the same reasons that I do. :) Basically, > the DQ material on religion that I have heard about and seen (granted > this was many years ago) was always meant to keep religion and magic > separate from one another. I don't remember where I've seen it in > the various editions of the game, but there were a couple of places > where this is hinted at. I partly agree, I would split it into two forms of religion "pagan" - magical in nature and PoL - separated from magic > > I have always assumed that his was how magical religions worked > > This is from hints:- > > > > In Thieves World already posted:- > > "...it is suggested that these priests be granted quasi-clerical > > abilities (as in pagan and early Catholic legend). These rely > heavily > > on ritual-- in both senses of the word-- and personal magic, which > is > > intended to directly affect an individual (the Healer skill [55] > and > > curses [84.3 et seq.] are good examples of this). Presumably, > spells > > which are scaled-down versions of the liege god's special powers > are > > part of the priest's repertoire". > > Spells are explicitly mentioned. > > Granted this is true, but remember the material in the Thieves' > World boxed set was meant to only apply if running in that particular > game world. This is the same material that allows one to create > Mages with more than one College to begin with, something that seems > to be in direct contradiction with the way the Colleges were set up > in the main game. This may, of course, be pure speculation, but it > is certainly my interpretation of the Thieves' World boxed set > material. That is a good point > > The Earth Magics college has two forms Pacific (as in peaceful not > > the ocean) and druidic. Although the connection with the druid's > > religion is not explicitly mentioned it is surely what the > designers > > had in mind. > > > The College of Black magics itself is clearly based on Witchcraft � > > believed to incorporate elements of Anglo-Saxon (and maybe a bit of > > Celtic) pagan cults This college also contains many features I > would > > expect a religion to have (eg blessings and curses). > > Actually, I would beg to differ with you here slightly. Black > Magic certainly has some elements of the darker sides of witchcraft, > notably the Crowley elements to it, but it is in no way > representative of witchcraft as a whole. It certainly has a literary > basis with the dark arts, but I suspect many practicing witches and > warlocks from the 1980s would have objected to the connection to what > they do on the basis of this College. possibly true of today's witches. I've done research of the medieval and Renacence witchcraft and its seem smilar to the colege of Black magics to me. Yes they have focused on the nastier side to make it interesting for a role-playing system > > Most of the magic users in legend are described as Priest(esses) > and > > they seem to cast things that would be best modelled as spells. > > Agreed, but there is a difference between a Priest of one of the > pagan religions and a Priest of the Christian faith. Arthurian > legend is a good example of this. However, more to the point, one > could argue that a true Priest or Priestess receives their abilities > from a Divine source, whereas magic stems from the mana that > surrounds us all. Miracles don't and should not reduce Fatigue in > game terms. That makes them different from magic entirely. Imnsho. > :) Yes - see my point on two forms of religion. I realise that miracles for a PoL religion (eg christianity) should be different (although one could argue that a 1 Ft cost is requied as sacrifice to the diety for useing some of his power, or to open a channel to the diety to tap power) But for PoL miracles I would love to get away from spells, but the time taken to draw up a list of rules for this or Miracle list was more time than I have. Perhaps your rules are the answer to my prayers Thanks for your post David

103 From: dbarrass_2000 <david.barrass@e...>
Date: Fri Aug 22, 2003 10:08am
Subject: Re: The Golden Rule(s)

Ok we agree on a lot of basics > No, it does not. But there is a clear indication here that the > pagan temples and elements of magic mentioned above owe a clear > allegiance of sorts to the Powers of Darkness, i.e., the DQ Demons, > and that would suggest more of a connection to magic. The Powers of > Light are clearly meant to be the deities/gods/goddesses/etc. within > this framework. Agreed > > 4) The use of the word pagan to describe magical religions is > > interesting; this implies that the opposite, Powers of Light, non- > > pagan did the designers have Christianity in mind when hey wrote > this? > > Very likely. You gotta remember when this game was written. :) > > > 5) The implied separation of magical beings from the Powers of > > Light. Is this religion for the non inherently magical races such > as > > humans? > > Beats me...but it makes for interesting speculation, doesn't it? > I suspect the priestess associated with (a form of) witchcraft would > be more what was in mind for the pagan temples and that aspect of > this, but there is no real way to know. Agreed - I see it as two forms of religion > And where do you fit shamanism into the equation? <g> See my spritis and religion document in the files section, this has Shamans in. They, in my system, are mages interacting with spirits in this and other dimensions. This document includes rules for making and interacting with spirits and what types of spirts there are. The cheif ones a shaman deals with are spirits of animals and the dead, either undead or ancestors. (PS a new draft is almost ready so if any one has comments you want to include in the new draft get them to me soon) Please read the spritis and religion document. I think, and hope, that we're not that far apart in the basics of our systems, although we may have diverged from that point :--) I'd love to see your system, perhaps they could be harmonised? In anticipation of your next post David

104 From: John M. Kahane <johnk-thinkpad@c...>
Date: Fri Aug 22, 2003 10:32am
Subject: JohnK's Priest Skill (Long)

Hullo, folks, Well, I figured that the time has come to post the skill up to the two lists, and figured that this mailing list would be the best place to do so. Bear several things in mind. First of all, this skill has been something that I've been working on...well, let's just say for a long time. It is based on the article on Priest skill that was being written for the DQ system way back when the Religion supplement was well and truly in the works, and has been done up on the basis of the memory of the material (plus some of the notes that I did take on the formulae that were being used for certain parts of the skill). Secondly, it makes the assumption, as did that original material, that magic and religion were not considered all that "mutually inclusive", and thus reflects this...but I still think that it works when dealing with pagan religions, and I have added a reference to my own version of this (under section 166.6) that the Colleges of Shamanism, Witchcraft (which has undergone some revision the last little while to fit better with some of the precepts of ARCANE WISDOM), and others that can be taken within the context of the pagan issues should be permitted if the GM allows. Thirdly, the concept of Miracles is one that will drive player and GMs who use this version of the Priest skill somewhat nuts. This is because, when it comes right down to it, the Miracles and other material on the deities and their areas of influence and the like were going to be in a separate, large-ish chapter of their own. Alas and alack, and all that... :( Finally, the Devoutness secondary characteristic is described in a separate article that I wrote which was published in the DQN a way back, and that was the characteristic that was going to be used for the purposes of devotion, belief, and all. Take this for what you will, and I expect to see all manner of debate and the like on this skill. So, fire away... :) Personal comments can be addressed to me at this e-mail, or my more normal one of jkahane@c.... :) Also, please note the copyright on this...yes, that's how long it's taken me to finish this "project" up. Now, all I have to do is the Dreamweaver skill. :) 166. PRIEST In any religion, there are those individuals who maintain the knowledge and perform the rituals associated with worship of the gods. Occasionally, such individuals may call on their gods for blessings, to borrow powers, or even perform miracles. The Priest skill provides a measure of the character's standing within his chosen Priesthood as well as his ability to call on the deity of his choice. This skill is unlike any others, however, in that many abilities are ultimately left open to the GamesMaster. It is actually to provide a general framework within which the player and GM can define the actual potential for being a priest for particular religions and deities. The player and GM need to work together to provide some of the details of defining the framework of the religion: What God? What is its domain? What are its powers? What does it expect of its followers? What other gods may oppose it? It is then the GM's responsibility to play the part of the gods and decide when a character has fulfilled the requirements set upon him by his deity. Because of this, the GM needs to keep track of a rating for the bond between the god and the Priest. This rating, called Devoutness, ranges from 0 to around 100, and will vary as described in the section of DragonQuest Additional Rules, section 3.11. Priests are powerful figures in the world of DragonQuest. Not only do they command control of power derived from the power of their god, but they may occasionally call upon the power of the gods to come to their aid. They can sanctify an area to protect those within it from the Powers of Darkness (or Powers of Light, depending), and can satisfy the souls of the dead to ensure a restful and peaceful death. The importance of the Priests in the world derives from their secret knowledge of the proper rituals to placate the gods, and make them happy. Normal people rely on the priests to protect them from those elements outside the realms of magic: plagues, famines, bad luck, and a host of other miscellaneous maladies. The priests are also responsible for the dead, providing them with safe passage into the afterlife (whatever that afterlife may be, dependent on the religion), as well as safe entrance to children into this world. There is a price to pay for all this: not all may become priests, and those that do walk a straight and narrow path, with many pitfalls and temptations that may lead them astray. They must be willing to follow orders and instructions from their gods, and sometimes clerical superiors, without question or hesitation. Those that fall from grace may never again enter the priesthood, and may even be hunted down by their more pious brethren. But to those that join the priesthood, the choice is not one they regret. [166.1] A character who wishes to take the priest skill must meet the minimum requirement in certain Characteristics. A character who wishes to take the priest skill must meet certain minimums in characteristics related to the ability. A priest must have a Willpower of at least 18 and a Devoutness of at least 25. If the character's Willpower or Devoutness are below the minimum values needed, the character expends one-quarter extra the Experience Points necessary to progress Ranks. If the character's Willpower is 24 or better, the character only expends three-quarters the Experience Points to progress Ranks. If the character has a Devoutness of greater than 60, the character expends three-quarters the Experience Points to progress Ranks. These modifiers are cumulative. [166.2] A priest does not need to achieve Rank with any additional languages, but certain priestly functions require extra language Ranks. While a priest is not required to have any extra language skills, it is suggested that the priest be familiar with the Spoken form of the Religious Common language at Rank 8, and the written form of the Religious Common language at Rank 7. In addition, it is suggested that for a priest to rise above Rank 5, he must speak and read/write an extra two languages of his choice (preferably related to the area in which he serves), and that to rise above Rank 8, the priest must speak and read/write an additional two languages of his choice. [166.3] As a priest progresses through the ranks of the priesthood, he has a Knowledge Rank that increases through time and effort. Each priest has a Knowledge Rank, abbreviated KR, that he gains when he enters the priesthood, and which rises over the course of time. A priest's Knowledge Rank is equal to one-half his Priest skill Rank, rounded down. While Devoutness (DV) represents the extent to which a priest believes in his deity, Knowledge Rank (KR) reflects the extent to which the priest is familiar with the rituals, behaviours, knowledge, and other aspects of worship of the deity in question. In addition, Knowledge Rank is used to determine certain abilities of the priest, and is also used to incite Miracles, create holy (or unholy) objects and items, and to enable the priest to live his life in a monastic fashion. Each of the uses of Knowledge Rank (KR) is detailed below in the appropriate sections. It should be noted that while Knowledge Rank begins at a value equal to one-half the Priest's Rank, rounded down, it rises and falls independently of the Priest Rank once the character enters play. There are various circumstances and situations that raise and increase Knowledge Rank. Note that it can never be increased through the use of Experience Points. If the priest does not meet the standards set forth for the worship of the deity in question (see below, Section 166.15, but this can include regular prayers, vows, acts of worship or devotion, sacrifice, etc.), the Knowledge Rank of the priest is reduced by one for each week that he does not obey these standards. If the priest does something or performs an act which is particularly beneficial to the deity, either performing an act for the deity or advancing the state of the deity's worship, increase the Knowledge Rank by one point. If the priest does something that goes against the creed or beliefs of the deity in question, reduce the Knowledge Rank by 1 to 3 points, and reduce the character's Devoutness by at least 1 to 5 points. The Knowledge Rank of the priest is also reduced by one for each successful use of the priest of an ability which draws on the deity's power. If the priest character's Knowledge Rank is reduced below zero (0), the deity in question should punish the priest in some fashion. This may simply take the form of reducing the character's Priest Rank, or it may take the form of a Minor or Major Curse. If the deity's wrath is truly terrible, it could result in the deity smiting the character from existence. Note that the priest cannot raise his Knowledge Rank if the character's Priest Rank is not equal to or exceeds the character's desired KR value. [166.4] A priest must choose a specific deity whom he worships, and receives bonuses to perform skills related to the deity's area of influence. A priest must choose one of the gods or goddesses (hereafter called deities) to worship, as noted under the Devoutness (DV) characteristic. A character who chooses to be a priest may not worship more than one deity, and thus may not have multiple Devoutness ratings. The character receives a bonus to their uses of any abilities or skills that are directly related to the area of influence of the deity. The bonus to skills is equal to +(2 per Priest Rank)%. If the priest does not have the skill in question, this will not give the priest Rank in the skill, but will increase their success chances. Furthermore, weapons and weapon categories receive a bonus of +1 per Priest Rank)% to the appropriate Strike Chances. [166.5] Priests are typically addressed by titles, according to their Rank. As a priest character progresses through the ranks of their priesthood, they are accorded certain titles to accompany their rank. These titles are reflected according to the Rank the priest has achieved as noted below: Rank 0-2: Initiate, Novice Rank 3-4: Acolyte, Brother, Sister Rank 4-7: Priest, Father, Mother, Deacon Rank 8: High Priest, High Priestess, Your Worship, Bishop Rank 10: Arch Priest, Arch Priestess, Pope, etc. [166.6] A priest may not become an Adept of any of the Colleges of Magic, with the exception of White Magics or Black Magics. A priest may not become an Adept or Mage of any of the Colleges of Magic except for being a White Mage or a Black Mage. In order to qualify for the taking of a College of Magic, the character must still meet the requirements of the College in terms of Magical Aptitude (MA) and any other requirements as deemed necessary by the GM. In the event that the priest chooses to be an Adept of the College of White Magics or Black Magics, the character derives a bonus to their abilities to cast spells from the College under their deity's influence. The Priest may add (Priest Rank x 2)% to their Cast Chances with spells from the appropriate College. [166.7] When a priest achieves Rank 2, the character must determine their Calling within the ranks of the priesthood. As a general rule, the Calling of a priest character should be determined in association with their particular skills. For example, an archivist would need to be fluent in reading/writing several languages, as well as having the Scribe Skill (see Section 169). An administrator would have the Steward Skill (see Section 170). In some religious orders, the position of Healer would possibly be appropriate. Some religions may have prophets and seers, for whom Astrologer Skill would be appropriate. Priesthoods, notably monastic orders, often require the use of various craft skills (see Craftsman Skill, section 156) or domestic skills (for example, cooking, carpentry, sewing, and gardening). Orators and those who are preachers would place an emphasis on speaking skills along with perhaps some Troubador or Courtesan Skills, since part of their tasks are to obtain converts. Such Callings are, of course, dependent on the nature of the particular religion of which the priest is a part. The GamesMaster and the player must agree on the particular skills needed for the character's Calling, and Rank in the Priest skill can never exceed rank in those skills by more than 2. [166.8] Once a priest achieves Rank 4, he may begin to lead certain traditional ceremonies. Once the priest character achieves Rank 4, 6, and again at 8, he may begin to lead certain traditional ceremonies. The ceremonies that can be led are to be determined by the player and the GamesMaster together, based upon the tenets and beliefs of each individual religion. Some guidelines are provided below. The Rank 4 ceremonies should include those which are private, frequent, and that have a low impact on the followers of the faith, and which may also be somewhat tedious (and this is why the higher Ranked priests delegate them). Rank 6 ceremonies should be those which are higher profile, public rituals. These will typically involve hundreds of followers, occasionally high-ranking members of society who would take offense at being forced to mingle with lower Rank priests, and the like. Rank 8 ceremonies are those rituals that are vital to the religion. Rank 10 ceremonies are those which, for whatever reason or tenet, can only be performed by the High Priest or leading religious leader of the religion in question. In all cases noted above, the Base Chance for the priest to lead a private ceremony is equal to [20 + (WPx2) + (KRx3) + (� Priest Rank)]%. [166.9] Once a priest achieves Rank 6, he may begin to lead traditional public ceremonies. Once the priest character achieves Rank 6, he may begin to lead certain traditional public ceremonies. The ceremonies that can be led are to be determined by the player and the GamesMaster together, based on the tenets and beliefs of each individual religion. Some guidelines are provided below. The priest character cannot, however, lead ceremonies which are traditionally left to particular ranks of the priesthood. For instance, some religions have ceremonies which can only be performed by the High Priest of Priestess of the priesthood. The nature of any such ceremonies is dependent on the nature of the deity to whom the ceremony is dedicated, and should be determined by the GM. Note that having a comprehensive list of ceremonies is not needed or even advised. It is quite acceptable that, in a given situation, the player may ask the GM, "It seems like there should be an applicable ceremony for my Priest." (This gives the player a chance to really stick it to the GM. Conversely, it gives the GM a chance to really make the player character work for their deity and their religion.) In all cases noted above, the Base Chance for the priest to lead a public ceremony is equal to [30 + (WPx2) + (KRx3) + (Priest Rank)]%. [166.10] A priest may attempt to convert other characters and being to become followers of their patron deity. While the majority of individuals have a very strong religious stance and set of beliefs, one of the true strengths of priests is their ability to convert others to their religion and to the worship of their deity. This is not, however, a simple task. A priest can attempt to convert a number of beings equal to his [(Priest Rank x 2) + (KR)] at any one time. The attempt to convert a character or a congregation to another deity's worship takes at least 2 hours (-2 minutes per Rank). The Base Chance of converting a character to the worship of the priest's deity is equal to [(Priest Rank x 2) + (KRx3) + (WP of Priest - WP of target) + (Troubador or Courtesan Rank/2)]%. The GM may add any other modifiers that she sees fit, although language might be one of the deciding factors in this whole endeavour. [166.11] A priest may bless or curse characters and beings as he sees fit, but has certain strictures to doing so. A priest is capable of blessing or cursing individuals and groups in such fashions as the GamesMaster deems suitable for the deity in question. Note that the blessing or curse in question can take any form desired by the priest. Examples might include, "May the God of War give you righteous bravery to strike at your foes" (which might result in a bonus to the target's Willpower or Military Scientist Skill), or "May you be blinded by your greed" (which might result in the target character going blind, or perhaps being cursed to go blind when he sees something that he desires). Note that characters blessed or cursed by a priest do not receive a Magical Resistance roll to the effect in question. The only thing which may moderate or mitigate the target character's being affected by the blessing or curse is their Devoutness, and which deities they worship. This moderation of the severity of the blessing or curse is left as an exercise to the GamesMaster and her players. As a general rule, the blessed or cursed being will receive a bonus or penalty of (Priest Rank x 2)% to whatever set of circumstances are affected by the blessing or curse in question. The GamesMaster may rule that a blessing or curse is not appropriate because of the manner in which it is phrased or due to the nature of the deity the character worships. Furthermore, each blessing or curse the priest lays on a target reduces his Knowledge Rank (KR) by 1 point. [166.12] A priest may call upon his deity for divine inspiration and guidance. There are times when a priest will find himself at a loss for direction in his life, and at these times, the priest may turn to their deity for guidance. Through some combination of ritual, prayer, and sacrifice, the priest may attempt to receive the deity's attention in the hopes of Divine Inspiration. The Base Chance for a priest to receive successful Divine Inspiration is equal to [(KRx4) + DV)]%. Such an attempt will require 24 hours (-2 hours per Priest Rank). The GamesMaster should note that divine inspiration is often circumspect or even cryptic, and quite often open to interpretation. Deities tend to have little patience when those they share their Divine Wisdom with are so obtuse as to miss its meaning (that is, Divine Inspiration should not be meaningless, but it can be obscure or subtle). [166.13] When a priest has great need, he may be able to call upon his deity for a Miracle. A priest may only call upon their deity to perform a Miracle in a time of great need. This has to be judged by the GM, as Miracles are not handed out frivolously, and they are not without cost. In addition, prayers of this sort are not always answered; a typical response to such questions is usually, "My child, in this may your faith be tested." The chart below provides some modifiers that will affect the chance of a Miracle occurring. This being said, the GM should note that this chart is only a reference, and not a hard and fast rule. The Base Chance of a priest receiving a Miracle is 1%. The priest character may add � his Devoutness (DV) and his Knowledge Rank (KR) to this chance of success. A priest attempting a miracle should roll percentile dice; this die roll may be altered by the following modifiers: Situation Modifier Miracle attempted in this area in the past year -2 Miracle attempted in this area in the past six months -5 Miracle attempted by this person in the past year +2 Miracle attempted by this person in the past six months -2 Area is a high mana area -(Mana x 3) Area is a Place of Power -4 Area is Magic consecrated ground -10 Area is consecrated to other deity -5 Area is consecrated to own deity +5 High Holy Day of the Power supplicated -5 In a temple devoted to the deity supplicated +5 Supplicant has demonic ties (deals with Demons often, travels with a Black Magician or Greater Summoner, has been granted a boon by a demon, etc.) -15 Supplicant has not been faithful -10 Supplicant has prayed in the last hour +1 Per week the supplicant spends in meditation +2 Supplicant has a selfless request +2 Supplicant has a selfish request -5 For every Rank in Priest Skill +1 Supplicant is on a holy Geas -5 Supplicant is under attack -3 Note that the request for a Miracle is not one that is open to further discussion. There are no deals or negotiating that take place - either the deity grants the Miracle, or doesn't. An unmodified result of "01" will always succeed. If a "100" or greater is rolled, something other than the intended deity is contacted; it is up to the GM to determine the results of this (a demon may appear as if called by the Call Master Spell (Black Magics, G-14, pg. 62), or perhaps a rival deity hears and grants a boon to the supplicant's enemies, etc.). Assume deities to be masters of all forms of abilities and the like that duplicate Magic within their own sphere of influence, and they are Rank 60 in all Skills. They could cast a spell, heal those in need, grant divine power to shoot lightning from the supplicant's head, or do whatever else the GM feels is appropriate to the situation at hand and the deity in question. Resistance rolls to the effects of abilities used by deities (such as duplicating magical effects) may either not be allowed at all (for example, in the case where the God of Winds uses the winds for some feat or effect, or the God of Thieves wishes to hide something) or can be made with a -20 penalty (in such a case where the GM determines that the deity does something that is equivalent to a spell with an MA of around 300, about Rank 50 with the "spell," and casts for triple or quadruple effect). Perhaps an avatar is summoned, with incredulous characteristics (in the 30s or so) and obscenely high Ranks (Giant Club at Rank 16, for example). It is important to bear in mind that, unlike other fantasy roleplaying games where Miracles are commonplace and such terms as "clerics" are used, Miracles in the DragonQuest RPG are meant to make people stand in awe, to be awestruck by the effects of the Miracle in question. While Miracles are not bound by specific rules - the GM has complete control over these - they do follow certain forms. For example, a character who falls off a 150-foot cliff and prays for a Miracle, lands hard and walks away from it. This is not a Miracle in the Priest rules offered here; the character landing, and breaking their bones, and surviving the fall is the Miracle in this case. The nature of Miracles are left up to the discretion of the GamesMaster, and the GM should apply a positive or negative modifier to the Success Chance, depending on how she feels the Miracle in question "fits" with what is being offered here. It should also be noted that a successful use of the Priest skill to invoke a Miracle only results in the deity taking a favourable interest in the immediate concerns of the supplicant; this means that the deity may require some sort of service or favour from the supplicant, at the GM's discretion. [166.14] A priest is able to create or imbue the essence of his deity into items or objects, and thus create divine items. A priest is capable, with the aid of his deity, of creating objects that are imbued with the spirit or essence of the deity in question. The items thus created are often referred to as Holy or Unholy items and objects. A priest could imbue an object with the essence of his deity, such that it could be a weapon that is effective against specific forces or targets, to imbue water with the ability to strike down the Undead or some force aligned opposite to the deity in question (thus, an Earth deity's priest can create an object that can do extra damage or protect against the forces of Air), or can even repel the Undead. Note that the priest does not create the item itself, but imbues an item with a holiness or unholiness that he invokes into the item on behalf of his deity. When a priest attempts to create such a holy or unholy item, the priest has a Base Chance equal to [(MDx2) + (KRx4)]%. The priest requires 24 hours (-1 hour per Priest Rank) to create such an item, although complex items and the like may take longer at the GM's discretion. The item is treated as having an ability equal to � (Priest KR) for whatever purpose the item was intended, although a special success is treated as giving it the full KR, and a grievous success is treated as giving it the ability at (KR x 1.5). Thus, a Rank 4 Priest with Knowledge Rank (KR) at 8 who attempts to create holy water that will damage Undead, will do +4 damage to the Lesser Undead and +4 damage to the Greater Undead. A sword that is designed to function against Air-based beings created by a Priest with Knowledge Rank (KR) 8 would inflict +4 damage to creatures or entities of Air. [166.15] A priest must adhere to a set of guidelines regarding his behaviour as it pertains to his deity and his religion. All priests must pray every day to their deity for a period of no less than � (Knowledge Rank + 1) hours. This time can be broken up into periods throughout the day, although most religions have set times when prayers and devotions are conducted. If the priest fails to do so, see the notes in section 166.3 on Knowledge Ranks. In addition, the priest will lose all abilities and powers granted by the Priest skill, and suffer a penalty of -10% to all Base Chances that involve the use of their priestly abilities, due to the lack of divine support they normally receive when using these abilities. Priests must also adhere to a strict set of rules that all priests of their religion must follow; some examples might include chastity (no sex), celibacy (no marriage), no meat, must never draw blood, must pray facing east, must never cut hair, must go bald, must not kill specific creatures sacred to the deity, cannot speak, must tithe wealth to the religion followed (usually some 10%), cannot learn specific skills (such as Assassins in the case of the followers of Justice, or perhaps Navigator in the case of devotees of Earth, although they would be permitted Orienteering skill), must not use metallic objects, cannot refuse certain requests, cannot lie, etc. The GamesMaster should devise a set of restrictions for each character wishing to learn the Priest skill, based on the specific deity they choose to worship. Failure to comply with these strictures results in the same penalty as if the priest had failed to pray; however, in these cases, the priest will suffer the penalties for at least a number of days equal to his (Devoutness - Priest Rank), possibly longer, depending on the nature of the transgression and the will of the deity. Blatant actions against the strictures of the deity may result in a loss of Rank in Priest skill and/or Knowledge Rank or even a geas. [166.16] A priest of a given religion must usually engage in monastic behaviour for part of a given period of time, usually in years. As a general rule, priestly orders are somewhat monastic- or sisterhood- oriented in their nature, and require the priest to take a monastic pilgrimage to strengthen their faith, maintain their belief in the priest's deity, and to rededicate themselves to the deity in question. However, not all religious orders are monastic or require this. This should be decided by the GamesMaster and the player, depending on the nature of the deity and religion in question. A priest of a monastic order is usually required to spend up to [30 + (Priest Rank x 2) + KR] days in a monastic setting, worshipping their deity and re-dedicating themselves to the deity in question once every (KR - 1) years. Some priests spend even more time on these retreats, simply because they are so spiritually fulfilling. If a priest fails to spend the amount of necessary time in a monastic environment, his spiritual beliefs gradually give way to a more worldly set of values, and the priest loses 5 Ranks in Priest skill and a corresponding drop of 3 Knowledge Ranks. When the priest does decide to fulfill his monastic retreat obligations, the priest must spend an extra (Priest Rank + KR)2 weeks in the monastic worship and solitude. [166.17] The social position and status of the priest character has certain advantages and disadvantages. A priest is generally revered and respected by the people in the area in which they live and work (although not always by the nobility) within their own culture. In those cases where the GamesMaster feels it is appropriate, the priest may receive a bonus of (Rankx2)% to his reaction rolls. Conversely, in cases where the priest is most unwelcome (for example, a priest of the deity of Justice who is arbitrating in the Thieves' Guildhall), the priest suffers a penalty of (Rankx2)% to his reaction rolls. In some cases, the reaction roll is to be altered even if the priest's identity is a secret - the priest simply carries an aura of the divine which affects those around him. [166.18] A priest may be called upon by their patron deity to perform a quest or other similar service. The deities do not tend to just give their blessings and a portion of their power to their priests and servants, and usually expect some service in return. Once per season, the GamesMaster should roll to determine if the priest's deity calls upon him to perform a service. The chance of this happening is equal to the character's (Priest Rank)%. It can be assumed that the deity of the character in question has at least Rank (D10+50) with the equivalent of the Geas ability. If the character is contacted, and even attempts to resist the service or geas of the deity (in a manner deemed suitable by the GM, of course), he will lose all his Ranks with Priest skill (with that deity, at least). Quests handed down in this fashion are not necessarily dangerous, but could be tests of faith. The higher the Rank of the priest, the more likely the geas or quest is to be of a somewhat perilous nature. [166.19] A priest must pay [150 + (Rank x 200)] Silver Pennies per year for the necessary supplies and tools needed for the basic religious rituals and the like each year. As a general rule, this would include ceremonial garb, books and scrolls, minor artifacts (for example, crucifix, staves, amulets, symbols of the deity), incense and the like. If the priest fails to pay this yearly cost, the character's Rank with the skill is reduced by two Ranks below the actual Rank he has with the skill. If the character does not pay the fees for two consecutive years, his Priest Rank is permanently reduced by one. Note the reduction in Priest Rank automatically causes a reduction of 1 to 3 points in Knowledge Rank (KR) that the priest may have. ----- Copyright (c) 1983, 1984, 1986, 1991, 1992, 2001 John M. Kahane ... Diamond (n.): A lump of coal that made good under pressure. JohnK from the Lap of OS/2 johnk-thinkpad@c... http://www.comnet.ca/~jkahane

105 From: green_skies_at_night <green_skies_at_night@y...>
Date: Fri Aug 22, 2003 9:58pm
Subject: Spirits and Religion

In looking over the Spirits and Religion document, I'd like to congratulate David Barrass on his hard work and thoughtful presentation. Having said that, I was wondering what the thought was behind Cleric types not being able to use mana, instead deriving power from a god, who in turn derives his power from his believers. Why is mana anathema to priests? It seems to me, there might be some colleges which practice white magicks, with the blessing of the Lords of Light or Light Powers. Should the practice of miracles and the rituals of the religious be any different, than say, the black mage, who is a kind of priest (albiet serving the Dark Powers) in his own right? Philosophically, I have my own take on the subject, but I'd be interested to hear from the group. Does this system allow for one Creator, for it seems geared toward entire pantheons of dieties (much in the greco-romano tradition)? The various planes of existence seem clear to me as well. The original DQ system owns its beginnings primarly to two sources of fiction, those being the writings of Ursula Le Guin, and J.R.R Tolkien. Neither of these bodies of work has the same flavor as that presented in David's document, though one must also consider the European mythos, which was another influence on the game system. So, Paganism brings us to druids, the spirits of leaf, river, and vine, as well as burgeoning Christianity (which, I for one, will never use in a campaign!). I'm just throwing this out there in the hope that others may respond in kind. Overall, nice work David!

106 From: dbarrass_2000 <david.barrass@e...>
Date: Sat Aug 23, 2003 7:44am
Subject: Re: Spirits and Religion

> In looking over the Spirits and Religion document, I'd like to > congratulate David Barrass on his hard work and thoughtful > presentation. Having said that, I was wondering what the thought was > behind Cleric types not being able to use mana, instead deriving > power from a god, who in turn derives his power from his believers. > Why is mana anathema to priests? This was based on the DQ book - check out the section on consecrated ground, first page of the magic section. >It seems to me, there might be some > colleges which practice white magicks, with the blessing of the Lords > of Light or Light Powers. Should the practice of miracles and the > rituals of the religious be any different, than say, the black mage, > who is a kind of priest (albiet serving the Dark Powers) in his own > right? Philosophically, I have my own take on the subject, but I'd be > interested to hear from the group. Does this system allow for one > Creator, for it seems geared toward entire pantheons of dieties (much > in the greco-romano tradition)? The various planes of existence seem > clear to me as well. The original DQ system owns its beginnings > primarly to two sources of fiction, those being the writings of > Ursula Le Guin, and J.R.R Tolkien. Neither of these bodies of work > has the same flavor as that presented in David's document, though one > must also consider the European mythos, which was another influence > on the game system. So, Paganism brings us to druids, the spirits of > leaf, river, and vine, as well as burgeoning Christianity (which, I > for one, will never use in a campaign!). I'm just throwing this out > there in the hope that others may respond in kind. Overall, nice > work David! Thanks I see paganism as serving many gods, many of whom will see themselves as on the same side as the Powers of Light. Just because they're pagan doesn't make them evil. However, as I read the book, it does not make them the same as the Powers of Light. Hence the two forms of religion Pagan priest and Powers of Light Cleric I see it that the PoL have found another way, possibly for higher motives or to ultimatly remove magic and so cut out the competition of Pagan gods - two of many senarios that could explain this David

107 From: dbarrass_2000 <david.barrass@e...>
Date: Sat Aug 23, 2003 7:50am
Subject: Re: JohnK's Priest Skill (Long)

Got it printed ( big Thanks for posting it) - give me a couple of days to look over it David

108 From: green_skies_at_night <green_skies_at_night@y...>
Date: Sat Aug 23, 2003 10:35am
Subject: Re: Spirits and Religion

Thanks for clearing that up, David. :)

109 From: tmckelvey77089 <tmckelvey77089@y...>
Date: Sat Aug 23, 2003 0:25pm
Subject: Re: JohnK's Priest Skill (Long)

John, I'm having trouble finding your article on the Devoutness characteristic. Would you repost it here? Thanks, Ted McKelvey

110 From: tmckelvey77089 <tmckelvey77089@y...>
Date: Sat Aug 23, 2003 0:25pm
Subject: Re: JohnK's Priest Skill (Long)

John, I'm having trouble finding your article on the Devoutness characteristic. Would you repost it here? Thanks, Ted McKelvey

111 From: green_skies_at_night <green_skies_at_night@y...>
Date: Sat Aug 23, 2003 4:15pm
Subject: A Wicked Wizard Punished

One day a wizard told a man whom he knew that, if any one were to climb a certain mountain-peak and jump off on to the belt of clouds below, he would be able to ride about on them as on a horse, and see the whole world. Trusting in this, the man did as the wizard had told him, and in very truth was enabled to ride about on the clouds. He visited the whole world in this fashion, and brought back a map which he had drawn of the whole world both of men and of gods. On arriving back at the mountain-peak in Aino-land, he stepped off the cloud on to the mountain, and, descending to the valley, told the wizard how successful and delightful the journey had been, and thanked him for the opportunity kindly granted him of seeing sights so numerous and so strange. The wizard was overcome with astonishment. For what he had told the other man was a lie, a wicked lie invented with the sole intention of causing his death; for he hated him. Nevertheless, seeing that what he had simply meant for an idle tale was apparently an actual fact, he decided to see the world himself in this easy fashion. So, ascending the mountain-peak, and seeing a belt of clouds a short way below, he jumped off on to it, but was instantly dashed to pieces in the valley below. That night the god of the mountain appeared to the good man in a dream, and said: "The wizard has met with the death which his fraud and folly deserve. You I kept from hurt, because you are a good man. So when, obedient to the wizard's advice, you leapt off on to the cloud, I bore you up, and showed you the world in order to make you a wiser man. Let all men learn from this how wickedness leads to condign punishment!"

112 From: John Rauchert <john.rauchert@s...>
Date: Sat Aug 23, 2003 6:48pm
Subject: RE: Re: JohnK's Priest Skill (Long)

JohnK's original article on Devoutness can be found at the DragonQuest Newsletter Archive. It appeared in Volume 2 Number 5 May 1995

http://johnrauchert.brinkster.net/dq/archive/dqnewsletter/dqv2n5.htm

-----Original Message-----
From: tmckelvey77089
To:
Sent: 23/08/03 12:25 PM
Subject: [DragonQuestCathedral] Re: JohnK's Priest Skill (Long)

John,

I'm having trouble finding your article on the Devoutness
characteristic. Would you repost it here?

Thanks,
Ted McKelvey

113 From: John M. Kahane <jkahane@c...>
Date: Sun Aug 24, 2003 7:43am
Subject: Re: Re: Spells in Religion

Hullo, David, On Fri, 22 Aug 2003 15:56:09 -0000, dbarrass_2000 wrote: >> Probably for some of the same reasons that I do. :) Basically, >> the DQ material on religion that I have heard about and seen >>(granted this was many years ago) was always meant to keep >>religion and magic separate from one another. I don't remember >>where I've seen it in the various editions of the game, but there >>were a couple of places where this is hinted at. > >I partly agree, I would split it into two forms of religion "pagan" - >magical in nature and PoL - separated from magic Frankly, I don't think that there is a need to split it into pagan and PoL, to be honest. The Priest skill, if handled right and worked with by a GM and player who both have a good grasp of what they're doing, should be able to use the same skill to do this. Besides, in most pagan religions one tends to have shamans, witches, and the like, rather than priests, so... >> > I have always assumed that his was how magical religions worked >> > This is from hints:- >> > In Thieves World already posted:- >> > "...it is suggested that these priests be granted quasi-clerical >> > abilities (as in pagan and early Catholic legend). These rely >> >heavily on ritual-- in both senses of the word-- and personal >> >magic, which is intended to directly affect an individual (the >> >Healer skill [55] and curses [84.3 et seq.] are good examples >> >of this). Presumably, spells which are scaled-down versions >> >of the liege god's special powers are part of the priest's >> >repertoire". >> > Spells are explicitly mentioned. >> >> Granted this is true, but remember the material in the Thieves' >> World boxed set was meant to only apply if running in that >>particular game world. This is the same material that allows one >>to create Mages with more than one College to begin with, >>something that seems to be in direct contradiction with the way >>the Colleges were set up in the main game. This may, of course, >>be pure speculation, but it is certainly my interpretation of the >>Thieves' World boxed set material. > >That is a good point What bugs me about this is that most people just assume that the Thieves' World material is canon for the DRAGONQUEST game system, and not specific rules for the Thieves' World environment. >> > The College of Black magics itself is clearly based on >> >Witchcraft � believed to incorporate elements of Anglo-Saxon >> >(and maybe a bit of Celtic) pagan cults This college also >> >contains many features I would expect a religion to have >> >(eg blessings and curses). >> >> Actually, I would beg to differ with you here slightly. Black >> Magic certainly has some elements of the darker sides of >>witchcraft, notably the Crowley elements to it, but it is in no way >> representative of witchcraft as a whole. It certainly has a >>literary basis with the dark arts, but I suspect many practicing >>witches and warlocks from the 1980s would have objected to >>the connection to what they do on the basis of this College. > >possibly true of today's witches. I've done research of the >medieval snd Renacence witchcraft and its seem smilar to the >colege of Black magics to me. Yes they have focused on the >nastier side to make it interesting for a role-playing system Ah, but remember this was the 1980s, the period when D&D was being accused as contributing to the murder and the like by kids who were playing the game, and when witchcraft was considered an evil, and its real life wiccan practicioners were all in hiding and the like. The game's focus was similar to that, and hence the College of Black Magics was very much a menace within the context of the game and the game world. Frankly, I wouldn't use a Black Mage to simulate a witch or warlock or whatever, not the way the first two editions set them up. Of course, one doesn't have that worry with the 3rd Edition. :) >> > Most of the magic users in legend are described as Priest(esses) >> > and they seem to cast things that would be best modelled as >> >spells. >> >> Agreed, but there is a difference between a Priest of one of the >> pagan religions and a Priest of the Christian faith. Arthurian >> legend is a good example of this. However, more to the point, one >> could argue that a true Priest or Priestess receives their >>abilities from a Divine source, whereas magic stems from the mana >>that surrounds us all. Miracles don't and should not reduce Fatigue >>in game terms. That makes them different from magic entirely. >Imnsho. :) > >Yes - see my point on two forms of religion. I realise that miracles >for a PoL religion (eg christianity) should be different (although >one could argue that a 1 Ft cost is requied as sacrifice to the diety >for useing some of his power, or to open a channel to the diety to >tap power) But for PoL miracles I would love to get away from >spells, but the time taken to draw up a list of rules for this or >Miracle list was more time than I have. Perhaps your rules are the >answer to my prayers I guess you need to tell me whether the Priest skill that I've just presented addresses that question at all. :) Of course, like I said, I suspect people will either hate what I've done for the skill or like it. ....."Wait, you can smell Crichton in all of this?" - Aeryn "Yes. His odour is even stronger than yours." - D'Argo "I don't have an odour." - Aeryn (FS; TOBM) JohnK e-mail: jkahane@c... web page: http://www.comnet.ca/~jkahane

114 From: John M. Kahane <johnk-thinkpad@c...>
Date: Sun Aug 24, 2003 2:15pm
Subject: Re: Re: JohnK's Priest Skill (Long)

Hullo, Ted, On Sat, 23 Aug 2003 18:25:01 -0000, tmckelvey77089 wrote: >I'm having trouble finding your article on the Devoutness >characteristic. Would you repost it here? Sure thing, not a problem... The excerpt from my Additional Rules material on Devoutness follows: ---------------------------------- [3.11] Devoutness is a measure of the extent to which the character honestly believes in a specific deity or in a group of deities. The Devoutness (DV) characteristic is one that is the most flexible and difficult of all to characterize due to the nature of the matter of religion. Devoutness represents the honest belief of a character in a deity and/or a group of deities (commonly called a pantheon). The world around the characters possesses much in the way of history and ancient lore, and religion is a part of this world. While a charac ter may choose not to have a belief in any form of deities or gods, it is likely that the character's personality is one that gives a respect to a certain type of deity or to a specific deity. The character's Devoutness represents the extent to which the character places faith in the gods of the game world and campaign, and could have long term effects. Each character will deter- mine her own DV value, based on personal beliefs and aspects of the character's personality. Thus, a farmer might not be overly religious, but he will have a healthy respect for the goddess of agriculture and may offer small things at an altar to the goddess after a good harvest or may appeal in her name during a hard day in the fields. The character would have a DV of perhaps 1 or 2. A thief who is highly superstitious, on the other hand, might choose to have a strong worship of the god of thieves, possibly due to the influ- ence of the Thieves' Guild or because of personal belief. This character would give a certain sum of money every month at the temple of the god, and might perform certain rituals at various times or just before committing an act of thievery. This character would have a DV of perhaps 3, 4, or even as high as 5. [5.9] The character begins with a Devoutness that is determined by the character's religious intent. The player character determines her Devoutness based on the extent to which she wishes to worship the deities. Devoutness ranges from 0 (almost non-belief) to 100 (a total religious fervour), and there is also the realm of "A" which stands for atheism. The character must choose a Rank for their Devoutness at the time they create the character. It is important to note that a character can choose to worship more than one god or goddess. If a char- acter chooses to worship a second deity, she cannot have a Devoutness higher than (DV1-1), and if the character chooses to worship a third deity, she cannot have a Devoutness higher than (DV2-3), where the DV with subscript refers to the previous DV value. No character may choose to worship more than three deities, but a Devoutness Rank can be chosen with an entire pantheon (which would be highly unusual to say the least). ---------------------------------- Hope this material is what you were looking for. ... If hot air rises, why aren't Ottawa and Washington in orbit? JohnK from the Lap of OS/2 johnk-thinkpad@c... http://www.comnet.ca/~jkahane

115 From: dbarrass_2000 <david.barrass@e...>
Date: Mon Aug 25, 2003 2:27am
Subject: Re: Spells in Religion

<snip as this thread is getting too long> > Frankly, I don't think that there is a need to split it into pagan > and PoL, to be honest. The Priest skill, if handled right and worked > with by a GM and player who both have a good grasp of what they're > doing, should be able to use the same skill to do this. Besides, in > most pagan religions one tends to have shamans, witches, and the like, > rather than priests, so... The split into two is based on the DQ book, where concecrated ground:- "Barrows, pagan temples (those in which magic forms part of the ritual) <snip> can never be consecrated ground." I would much rather have had one skill, but I felt this precluded it The Pagan religions of Greece, Rome, Egypt all had priests and preistesses presiding over a complex religion. Do you classifiy these as a PoL (or PoD) or pagan religion? <snip again> > >That is a good point > > What bugs me about this is that most people just assume that the > Thieves' World material is canon for the DRAGONQUEST game system, and > not specific rules for the Thieves' World environment. true, but it was writen by DQ people for DQ so it must give some clues to what they were thinking. Just how much is the question. <snip> > >possibly true of today's witches. I've done research of the > >medieval snd Renacence witchcraft and its seem smilar to the > >colege of Black magics to me. Yes they have focused on the > >nastier side to make it interesting for a role-playing system > > Ah, but remember this was the 1980s, the period when D&D was being > accused as contributing to the murder and the like by kids who were > playing the game, and when witchcraft was considered an evil, and its > real life wiccan practicioners were all in hiding and the like. The > game's focus was similar to that, and hence the College of Black Magics > was very much a menace within the context of the game and the game > world. Frankly, I wouldn't use a Black Mage to simulate a witch or > warlock or whatever, not the way the first two editions set them up. > Of course, one doesn't have that worry with the 3rd Edition. :) sadly not :--( From where I work I can see the village where 200 witches were burnt in 1590. They were, apparently, inspired by the Devil to throw a cat into the sea to summon a storm in an attempt to kill the King. The new protestant religion growing up in Scotland at the time would consider the College of Black Magics a terrifying justification of their acts, I belive - and I fully accept your right to dissagree - that this type of witchcraft was the basis of the College. Sadly there is no way of knowing now :--( Quite possibly it was both influences. The degree of scollarship that went into the original DQ is one of the things I love about it. <snip> > >Yes - see my point on two forms of religion. I realise that miracles > >for a PoL religion (eg christianity) should be different (although > >one could argue that a 1 Ft cost is requied as sacrifice to the diety > >for useing some of his power, or to open a channel to the diety to > >tap power) But for PoL miracles I would love to get away from > >spells, but the time taken to draw up a list of rules for this or > >Miracle list was more time than I have. Perhaps your rules are the > >answer to my prayers > > I guess you need to tell me whether the Priest skill that I've > just presented addresses that question at all. :) Of course, like I > said, I suspect people will either hate what I've done for the skill or > like it. I have read it and it looks promicing but I have some questions that I'll ask in another post :--) This is one of the things I like and dispare about DQ. The lack of cannonic rules makes life frustrating when you need a quick answer to deal with a situation. But its also liberating, feel there's a gap in the rules? Make your own, who's to stop you? As long as your group is happy to play the're not going to have the headache of transfering their characters to someone else's game world. You, like me and others, are making our ideas available to DQ world to the benfit of all. That has to be a good thing, and your record of contribution is one that I would be proud to have. David

116 From: Bruce Probst <bprobst@n...>
Date: Mon Aug 25, 2003 2:28am
Subject: Re: Re: Spells in Religion

On Sun, 24 Aug 2003 09:43:07 -0400, "John M. Kahane" <jkahane@c...> wrote: >Besides, in >most pagan religions one tends to have shamans, witches, and the like, >rather than priests, so... This is a bit of an over-simplification. "Pagan" generally means "non-Christian", so this isn't really true. Lots of "pagan" religions had perfectly structured priesthoods, they just weren't (or aren't) *Christian* priests. I think the distinction should really be between "structured" religions and "non-structured" ones. In a "structured" religion being a priest is pretty much all you do. In a "non-structured" religion being a priest is something you do in addition to whatever else you normally do. You can break it down even further ... in some "non-structured" religion you have "part-time priests", in others they don't even have that -- the religious worship is something that you do as an individual, and you have no "flock" to care for or guide. Any religious "rules" ought to be able to cope with one extreme as well as the other. ---------------------------------------------------------------- Bruce Probst bprobst@n... ICQ 6563830 Melbourne, Australia MSTie #72759 SCA #80160 "Rock and roll Martian." ASL FAQ http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/mantis/ASLFAQ

117 From: dbarrass_2000 <david.barrass@e...>
Date: Mon Aug 25, 2003 4:35am
Subject: Re: Spells in Religion

--- In DragonQuestCathedral@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Probst <bprobst@n...> wrote: > I think the distinction should really be between "structured" religions and > "non-structured" ones. In a "structured" religion being a priest is pretty > much all you do. In a "non-structured" religion being a priest is something > you do in addition to whatever else you normally do. > > You can break it down even further ... in some "non-structured" religion you > have "part-time priests", in others they don't even have that -- the > religious worship is something that you do as an individual, and you have no > "flock" to care for or guide. > > Any religious "rules" ought to be able to cope with one extreme as well as > the other. The part time priest I think is covered by the fact that it is a skill rather than a character class. Your point about the individual relationship with your diety without the intermediary of a priest is a good one. However, even here there there are spiritual leaders able to provide guidence and interpretation. Such a person would be a Lay reader in presbeterian protestant religions, and I beleive that a Rabi or imam fullfill similar roles, if some one knows better please correct me. Perhaps there is an arguement for a rank 0 priest being the state most worshippers acheive in the personal relationship religions - I'll have to think of the implications. In my draft rules, which I will post hopefully later this week, I've changed the PoL priest rules to include priest, monk and <Layman>, the latter for this purpose, but there's always that can be done To stimulate debate I'll included this rule change in this post: [110.1] point 3 added Laymen do not proceed into the highest reaches of the clergy, and so do not have the power of the other two, but similarly do not have some of the restrictions. They generally are spiritual guiders in small communities not large enough to justify a priest, or in religions that do not hold with interactions with the powers via priests, encouraging a more personal communication with the Powers added to [110.17] A Layman does not gain any of the abilities in sections [110.18] to [110.20] (nor can he collect followers), but he does keep and can improve the abilities gained before rank 3. In the pagan religions I've added a bit to cope with non-structured religions. I'm not sure if its the best way to do it, I've toyed with the possibillity of some religions having priests of a pantheon rather than an individual Diety, but not sure what the best way to do it is. [106.10] In certain primitive religions a priest may officiate in for more than one Facet of a God or even more than one God. This is dependant on the pantheon and generally only occurs in primitive societies that do not have the centres of population to allow the priests to specialise. If a priest wishes to become a priest for more than one god or facet of a god the following restrictions apply: 1. The priest must meet all requirements to be the Facet's or God's priest 2. The gods must be of the same pantheon 3. The gods must not be opposed 4. The priest must spend at least one hour in Purification (Q-8) or [32.2] in between officiating in ritual for the different gods or using a talent or spell or ritual of different deities. 5. The priest has separate ranks for each of his deities, essentially they are separate skills 6. The experience point cost for improve religious talents, spells and rituals is separate. Therefore these must be ranked individually for each god and the experience points spent to gain these spent individually. For example ranks gained in Payer for one god will not make gaining ranks in Payer for another god cheaper. 7. The priest may collect followers, but the limit for all followers of all religions is still his WP. The priest collects followers for his god individually. So, for example a priest may have 4 followers for one deity and 3 for another to a total of his WP. 8. The rules of individual Gods and facets may prohibit this The priest has a reduced obligation to contact the deity. At least one contact with any deity must be made as [106.7] and the contacts must be shared between the deities, but one contact of some form must be made at a minimum of once per month per god. The God will require that its festivals are observed. Failure to comply will result in the penalties of [106.7] to all religious success chances irrespective of deity. The same contact rules apply to retaining followers All other restrictions and powers of priests remain unchanged David (really enjoying this news group - I must do some work some time)

118 From: John M. Kahane <jkahane@c...>
Date: Mon Aug 25, 2003 7:13am
Subject: Re: Re: JohnK's Priest Skill (Long)

Hullo, David, On Sat, 23 Aug 2003 13:50:26 -0000, dbarrass_2000 wrote: >Got it printed ( big Thanks for posting it) - give me a couple of >days to look over it Oh, I didn't expect people to start commenting on it right away, simply because it is so large and there's a lot of material in it. I don't know what most of the folks around here are going to think of it, to be honest, but we'll see when the fallout and the comments on the material start coming in. Oh, and I've posted up the relevant excerpts from my Additional Rules material on Devoutness, for those who want it, since it's relevant to the Priest skill. .....Education is a poor substitute for cognition. JohnK e-mail: jkahane@c... web page: http://www.comnet.ca/~jkahane

119 From: John M. Kahane <jkahane@c...>
Date: Mon Aug 25, 2003 7:04am
Subject: Re: Re: The Golden Rule(s)

Hullo, David, On Fri, 22 Aug 2003 16:08:32 -0000, dbarrass_2000 wrote: >Ok we agree on a lot of basics So it would seem. :) >> No, it does not. But there is a clear indication here that the >> pagan temples and elements of magic mentioned above owe >>a clear allegiance of sorts to the Powers of Darkness, i.e., the >>DQ Demons, and that would suggest more of a connection >>to magic. The Powers of Light are clearly meant to be the >>deities/gods/goddesses/etc. within this framework. > >Agreed And yet while this seems to be so obvious and clear from the material presented in the game, it's amazing how many players and folks who run the game don't see this. Sometimes this is the sort of thing that can really drive a GM or player crazy, but I guess when it comes down to it, there aren't a lot of GMs who actually use religion or think religion through in roleplaying games. And because of the manner in which religion has been portrayed in rpgs in the past, there is a stereotypical attitude of how to bring it into one's rpg and all. >> Beats me...but it makes for interesting speculation, doesn't >>it? I suspect the priestess associated with (a form of) >>witchcraft would be more what was in mind for the pagan >>temples and that aspect of this, but there is no real way to >>know. > >Agreed - I see it as two forms of religion While one can argue that it is two forms of religion, I think that it can be seen as two aspects of the same way in which religions are dealt with. Besides, most people don't associate paganism with religion per se. >> And where do you fit shamanism into the equation? <g> > >See my spritis and religion document in the files section, this has >Shamans in. They, in my system, are mages interacting with spirits >in this and other dimensions. Yes, I've seen the article in question, and you've defined the Shamans and their form of magic quite nicely. I have something of a variant on the College of Shamanism, which is the last College I intend to bring into the game for a while (giving a total of 24 Colleges of Magic). I'm looking forward to seeing the new draft of the material, btw. :) .....The world is a beautiful book, for those who can read it. JohnK e-mail: jkahane@c... web page: http://www.comnet.ca/~jkahane

120 From: John M. Kahane <jkahane@c...>
Date: Mon Aug 25, 2003 7:10am
Subject: Re: Spirits and Religion

Hullo, Green_Skies, On Sat, 23 Aug 2003 03:58:02 -0000, green_skies_at_night wrote: >In looking over the Spirits and Religion document, I'd like to >congratulate David Barrass on his hard work and thoughtful >presentation. Having said that, I was wondering what the >thought was behind Cleric types not being able to use mana, >instead deriving power from a god, who in turn derives his >power from his believers. Why is mana anathema to priests? I would assume that this is based on some of the material to be found in the DQ rules, notably the material on consecrated ground, and some other reference and the like found in various sections of the magic section. David would have to answer you on that. >The original DQ system owns its beginnings primarly to two >sources of fiction, those being the writings of Ursula Le Guin, >and J.R.R Tolkien. Actually, the DQ system has its beginnings in a whole bunch of fantasy fiction and literature, of which Le Guin and JRRT are only a pair. The game also has been influenced by other writers, historical material, and largely by folklore and mythology. ....."She is a Leviathan. It's is the single defensive manoeuver she is capable of." - D'Argo (FS; Pr) JohnK e-mail: jkahane@c... web page: http://www.comnet.ca/~jkahane

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