Re[2]: [dq-rules] Hidden Bias (was Gender Neutral Writing)

[Larry <Kurgan@fastmail.fm>]

Hello Esko,


     Note to everyone else: if you skipped hän's post, go back and
     read it. It's wonderful! And if you didn't get the joke in my
     first sentence, I *know* you didn't read it. :)


EH> Second, you guys have no idea just how lucky you are to have a language 
EH> with separate pronouns for the sexes in the first place. In Finnish 
EH> there is only a single neutral pronoun, "hän", which refers to both men 
EH> and women, and it completely fucks up many sorts of sentences that an 
EH> English-speaker would write without a second thought.

    Have you seen the other end of the spectrum? German. Deutsch has
    multiples for each gender, dependant on age, situation, who is
    speaking, etc. It's a nightmare.
    

EH> Consider the following (rather poor and hurriedly thought up) example:

    Your illustration is *exactly* what I was referring to earlier.
    I've seen attempts at it already with English, and it was just as
    baffling and ludicrous.



EH> My own personal opinion is that the attempts to push the use of the 
EH> female pronoun for this purpose or (*puke*) alternating the male and 
EH> female pronouns is just a misguided trend...

    Nah, you can take the leap and admit it's truth, not just opinion.
    :)


EH> ...arising out of oversensitized, hysteric political correctness which
EH> seems to pervade much of American culture these days.

    Makes ya sick, doesn't it? I have to live amidst it. I'm not an
    "American basher," but still, I wish people, especially Americans,
    retained the ability to be embarrassed or ashamed when they're
    acting like whiny little kids and others call them on it. Sadly,
    they don't even realize what they're doing. So many years of
    freedom and prosperity (generally speaking) have lead to a sedate,
    take-it-for-granted level of comfort and mental laziness (and a
    definite belief of holding the cultural and moral high ground),
    that I'm not at all surprised, but still extremely frustrated, to
    see other nations looking at us with revulsion and/or disdain.
    Just don't let all of those types fool you. It started out great,
    and it still is a great country, filled with many good, honest,
    hard-working people that earn every ounce of that freedom and
    prosperity, and who don't act that way. Problem is, due to their
    natural common sense and manners, they aren't the ones the rest of
    the world sees on camera.


EH> It sometimes seems as if people are actively looking for something,
EH> anything, to be offended at, and many go to ridiculous lengths to
EH> find something trivial to nitpick.

    You are absolutely correct, and those groups of imbeciles often
    end up being heard as "the voice of America," not because they
    truly represent the majority, but merely because they are the ones
    doing the loud screaming and doing everything they can to be seen
    and heard. It's sickening.


EH> Even worse are those who accommodate such nitpickers.

    Bravo!!! Absolutely correct.


EH> That said, I don't take offense at somebody using the female pronoun as 
EH> generic, it's just as good for the purpose as the male one, which is the 
EH> default only by tradition, and keeping a tradition just for the sake of 
EH> keeping a tradition isn't enough justification to say that it is somehow 
EH> wrong.

    Minor disagreement, here. I'm a purist, and it does offend me. Not
    because I have dainty, easily offended sensibilities, but merely
    because I see it as just another ploy by the ones mentioned above.
    I see it as "them" attempting to destroy a work of art that I
    love, and their motives are insane, selfish, and not entirely
    sincere. And I wouldn't say it was just tradition. It's the
    finished craft, woven by a master, and changing a masterpiece, for
    whatever reasons, only diminishes and corrupts it.


EH> I'll personally use the male pronoun for generic expressions because
EH> that's the way I learned it and because it still is the accepted form,
EH> while using 'she' is considered an oddity.

    Completely agree.


EH> I'm something of a linguistical purist in some respects, but I realize 
EH> that languages change with the passage of time and some things that were 
EH> previously "forbidden" may become accepted...

    Sadly inevitable, but I don't have to like it.


EH> ...and I don't have a problem with that.

    Eek!


EH> It's the stuff like people substituting "possibul" for "possible" and
EH> similar illiterate stupidity that send me through the roof...

    99% of the time that just makes me ill, especially when I see a 45
    year old black man who's a multi-millionaire rap star doing it
    because it's part of his image, and the kids all start copying him
    and don't bother to get a real education as a result, because they
    think it's cool to talk and write that way, and school isn't cool.
    I've seen the fallout of years of this, and the streets are now
    filled with absolute morons that never speak an original sentence,
    with every word and obligatory hand gesture being something
    drilled into them by this disgusting counter-culture.

    The remaining 1% that I don't mind is something that I taught
    myself a long time ago, and it has a purpose. I'm referring to
    typing phonetically where appropriate, for the purpose of infusing
    a little personality and a better, more accurate "feel" for the
    writer. When I write casual emails, I often "type as I speak" so
    that the inflection, tone, and mood can be conveyed. It could go
    too far, of course, but I've never allowed myself to do that, and
    over the years it's worked well for me and added a distinct flavor
    to my "speech" that people can see is distinctive to me. Heck,
    I've even had women tell me that "I type sexy" whatever the hell
    that means. LOL  (Perhaps my little scheme has worked too well!)


EH> ...not the minor things like whether to use he or she for generic
EH> pronoun. That's not something that can be called butchering the English 
EH> language, not by a long shot.

    When compared to that I do see your point. <Chuckle>


EH> Regarding women, some professions are seen as women's stuff largely
EH> because those were basically seen as the only jobs that could be 
EH> considered proper for women to do (so far as any jobs were), and those 
EH> troglodytic attitudes have taken a long time to disappear.

    Let's also not forget that there were times when vital jobs were
    done by men because women literally couldn't do them. They took
    sheer brute strength to do, and the women took care of many of the
    remaining duties. It wasn't sexist, it was just logic in action.
    

EH> There's still a long way to go before they are completely eradicated,
EH> but it's happening. Not fast enough for some people while others are
EH> content with this pace...

    Call me old fashioned, or even something less dignified, but I'm
    one of those people that can see the differences beneath the skin,
    and am not upset or ashamed to be one side of a coin, so to speak.
    Men and women were made differently, not just physically, but in
    their psyches, mindsets, natural aptitudes, etc. We were designed
    to compliment each other, not to fight over who gets to do what
    task because we feel slighted that it's a given for the other
    gender. I watched my mother cook, clean, wash clothes, and
    maintain a household on a daily basis, for many years, and let me
    tell ya, it wasn't a walk in the park. It was damned hard,
    grueling work. But she rolled up her sleeves and did it every day,
    without a single complaint, and I was in awe of her determination
    and stamina. She wasn't very tall, and I was growing like a
    mutated tree, but all those soaked, heavy laundry baskets she
    carried out to the line every day gave those little arms enough
    strength to beat *me* at arm wrestling any day of the week.
    Whether it be man or woman, I respect a person that knows their
    strengths *and* limitations, and who isn't insulted that God made
    them the way they are for a purpose.

    Oh dear Lord, I really *do* want a girl like the girl that married
    dear old dad... How cliche.

    I need a drink.


EH> ...but getting all PC about certain less significant things in
EH> order to compensate for the more important stuff isn't the answer.

    Yeppers.


EH> And now that I've more or less offended everyone here so far, feel free 
EH> to crisp me to a cinder. *dons flame-retardant body armor* ;-)

    Offended? Are you kidding me? I'm on the verge of proposing...


    <Chuckle>


 
Best regards,

   Larry                         mailto:Kurgan@Fastmail.fm