Hello--
Hello Esko,
Just call me Edi, that's how everyone else does. :-)
I've studied that language for eight years, so yes, you could say I'm familiar with it. The personal pronouns are easy enough to master, but it's all the other grammar stuff, with every single noun having a gender of male, female or neuter and each of those handling differently that makes the language so hard. Not that Finnish would be any easier for you, how about having to know which one of the 14 different forms for every noun, adjective, pronoun and numeral to pick in every sentence and context? The joys of not having prepositions, but instead doing it all with suffixes...Have you seen the other end of the spectrum? German. Deutsch has multiples for each gender, dependant on age, situation, who is speaking, etc. It's a nightmare.
EH> ...arising out of oversensitized, hysteric political correctness which EH> seems to pervade much of American culture these days. Makes ya sick, doesn't it? I have to live amidst it. I'm not an "American basher," but still, I wish people, especially Americans, retained the ability to be embarrassed or ashamed when they're acting like whiny little kids and others call them on it. Sadly, they don't even realize what they're doing. So many years of freedom and prosperity (generally speaking) have lead to a sedate, take-it-for-granted level of comfort and mental laziness (and a definite belief of holding the cultural and moral high ground), that I'm not at all surprised, but still extremely frustrated, to see other nations looking at us with revulsion and/or disdain. Just don't let all of those types fool you. It started out great, and it still is a great country, filled with many good, honest, hard-working people that earn every ounce of that freedom and prosperity, and who don't act that way. Problem is, due to their natural common sense and manners, they aren't the ones the rest of the world sees on camera.
Most Americans I know actually more or less share your opinion on this subject, but then again, those people are all of the well educated variety who have learned to think for themselves and who aren't afraid of expressing their opinions and ruffling feathers if need be. The types you describe at the end there. I've heard enough horror stories and met enough representatives of the American populace who feature in those horror stories online to know how you feel. Trying to get through the kind of wall of often willful ignorance that they put up is enough to give anyone a brain aneurysm.
EH> That said, I don't take offense at somebody using the female pronoun as EH> generic, it's just as good for the purpose as the male one, which is the EH> default only by tradition, and keeping a tradition just for the sake of EH> keeping a tradition isn't enough justification to say that it is somehow EH> wrong.By that reasoning, your language is already corrupt beyond any redemption (and so is every other language as well). Languages change, they get new stuff added and some stuff pruned as time goes on. They are never static, and never complete. Sometimes the change is slow, and sometimes it happens very fast. Just look at the language and concepts of scientific and technical English, for an example of fast evolving, continuously changing subset of language. Core areas are slower to change, but if and when there is enough pressure, changes will happen.Minor disagreement, here. I'm a purist, and it does offend me. Not because I have dainty, easily offended sensibilities, but merely because I see it as just another ploy by the ones mentioned above. I see it as "them" attempting to destroy a work of art that I love, and their motives are insane, selfish, and not entirely sincere. And I wouldn't say it was just tradition. It's the finished craft, woven by a master, and changing a masterpiece, for whatever reasons, only diminishes and corrupts it.
The effect of English on the Finnish language is a topic of some controversy here, with many people who call themselves purists like you do screaming their heads off about Finnish being corrupted and dying out. Their claim is pure bullshit. Some words from English filter into Finnish from time to time, but most often they get adapted and Fennotized and just become part of the vocabulary, and when they don't, they get a Finnish equivalent coined if the word doesn't already exist. The language is very much alive and vibrant and definitely not dying out. Most complaints merely center around the fact that people think that their personal way of speech is the only correct way and are offended when everyone else doesn't automagically conform to their personal standards. The wide consensus among linguists is actually that there is no problem other than in the minds of laypeople who have no actual idea of the field of linguistics but who either profess to be experts in it or demand set-in-stone answers for every single facet of the issue. I have a quite excellent book on the subject, which was the exam book for the Helsinki University Department of Translation Linguistics that dwelt on this very subject, and it was quite an eye-opener. I decided not to apply after some consideration, though I'm interested in the field, there are a bit too many complications involved, mostly arising out of screwed up educational policies here.
The kind of kids you describe I can excuse for not knowing any better, but when you're talking about well educated people who are quite literate and knowledgeable in a wide variety of things and who are going to good schools and interested in learning things, and who still consistently and systematically use this kind of corruptions (the 'possibul' example), that's when it starts to be really grating. This is what I'm talking about. I'm not even going near the subject of Ebonics and related fuckwittery, because I know little of it firsthand and have heard enough about it to not even want to. The most caustic comments in that kind of discussions inevitably came from black Americans who had to grow up in the middle of it.EH> It's the stuff like people substituting "possibul" for "possible" and EH> similar illiterate stupidity that send me through the roof... 99% of the time that just makes me ill, especially when I see a 45 year old black man who's a multi-millionaire rap star doing it because it's part of his image, and the kids all start copying him and don't bother to get a real education as a result, because they think it's cool to talk and write that way, and school isn't cool. I've seen the fallout of years of this, and the streets are now filled with absolute morons that never speak an original sentence, with every word and obligatory hand gesture being something drilled into them by this disgusting counter-culture.
Difficult for me to visualize how to type phonetically in English, because spoken and written English are so completely different, unlike Finnish where there is only one single way to express any given sound in writing. Obviously spoken and formal written (which is the same as formal spoken) Finnish are different, but if you write the casually spoken language, there is only one correct way of doing it. Individual flavoring to typed text is of course possible, but I tend to see it more in terms of how a person uses language in the first place. Speech mannerisms often creep into text even when it's not intentional, and I recognize several distinctive individual styles even here, and on a couple of forums I frequent. Haven't seen anyone type quite like me yet, either, though a few people (not here) come close.The remaining 1% that I don't mind is something that I taught myself a long time ago, and it has a purpose. I'm referring to typing phonetically where appropriate, for the purpose of infusing a little personality and a better, more accurate "feel" for the writer. When I write casual emails, I often "type as I speak" so that the inflection, tone, and mood can be conveyed. It could go too far, of course, but I've never allowed myself to do that, and over the years it's worked well for me and added a distinct flavor to my "speech" that people can see is distinctive to me. Heck, I've even had women tell me that "I type sexy" whatever the hell that means. LOL (Perhaps my little scheme has worked too well!)
It was pretty one-sided logic then, because women had to do a lot of the men's jobs when the men weren't available (e.g. they were off fighting a war or whatever) and did just fine, but normally they wouldn't be allowed to do them at all (too much prestige in it or other such), while the men would not stoop to do what they considered women's work unless there was absolutely no alternative.EH> Regarding women, some professions are seen as women's stuff largelyEH> because those were basically seen as the only jobs that could be EH> considered proper for women to do (so far as any jobs were), and those EH> troglodytic attitudes have taken a long time to disappear.Let's also not forget that there were times when vital jobs were done by men because women literally couldn't do them. They took sheer brute strength to do, and the women took care of many of the remaining duties. It wasn't sexist, it was just logic in action.
Generally you are right, but that should not get in the way of judging people by their capabilities and picking the best person for the job without regard for gender. I judge people by their merits individually, not by their gender. More often than not, given equal opportunity, men and women will do equally well at any given task if their starting aptitudes are on the same footing. E.g. a mathematically gifted man vs a mathematically gifted woman for a task requiring that aptitude instead of a talent mismatch where one has the proper patitude and the other is e.g. musically gifted but has no head for math at all. There is an argument to be made for cases like front-line infantry in the military where physical strength is a big requirement and where women tend to lack the qualifications. It'd be rather unfunny to find out that your female squadmate isn't strong enough to drag you to safety when you get hit in combat. Of course, if a woman can pass all the same strength and fitness tests as the men, I don't see a problem, but such individuals are rare enough that it's easiest to just blanket ban them from it.EH> There's still a long way to go before they are completely eradicated, EH> but it's happening. Not fast enough for some people while others are EH> content with this pace... Call me old fashioned, or even something less dignified, but I'm one of those people that can see the differences beneath the skin, and am not upset or ashamed to be one side of a coin, so to speak. Men and women were made differently, not just physically, but in their psyches, mindsets, natural aptitudes, etc. We were designed to compliment each other, not to fight over who gets to do what task because we feel slighted that it's a given for the other gender.
I watched my mother <snip>
Your mother is a tough lady, all right. *tips hat*
So basically we agree, we just have a little difference of opinion on what kinds of things men and women are suited for. I suspect not even in that, since it is my argument that everyone should be judged according to their talents and skills and given the same opportunities as everyone else to take advantage of them and reap the rewards.Whether it be man or woman, I respect a person that knows their strengths *and* limitations, and who isn't insulted that God made them the way they are for a purpose.
Best regards, Edi ----------------------- Larry wrote:
Hello Esko, Note to everyone else: if you skipped hän's post, go back and read it. It's wonderful! And if you didn't get the joke in my first sentence, I *know* you didn't read it. :)EH> Second, you guys have no idea just how lucky you are to have a language EH> with separate pronouns for the sexes in the first place. In Finnish EH> there is only a single neutral pronoun, "hän", which refers to both men EH> and women, and it completely fucks up many sorts of sentences that an EH> English-speaker would write without a second thought.Have you seen the other end of the spectrum? German. Deutsch has multiples for each gender, dependant on age, situation, who is speaking, etc. It's a nightmare.EH> Consider the following (rather poor and hurriedly thought up) example: Your illustration is *exactly* what I was referring to earlier. I've seen attempts at it already with English, and it was just as baffling and ludicrous.EH> My own personal opinion is that the attempts to push the use of the EH> female pronoun for this purpose or (*puke*) alternating the male and EH> female pronouns is just a misguided trend...Nah, you can take the leap and admit it's truth, not just opinion. :) EH> ...arising out of oversensitized, hysteric political correctness which EH> seems to pervade much of American culture these days. Makes ya sick, doesn't it? I have to live amidst it. I'm not an "American basher," but still, I wish people, especially Americans, retained the ability to be embarrassed or ashamed when they're acting like whiny little kids and others call them on it. Sadly, they don't even realize what they're doing. So many years of freedom and prosperity (generally speaking) have lead to a sedate, take-it-for-granted level of comfort and mental laziness (and a definite belief of holding the cultural and moral high ground), that I'm not at all surprised, but still extremely frustrated, to see other nations looking at us with revulsion and/or disdain. Just don't let all of those types fool you. It started out great, and it still is a great country, filled with many good, honest, hard-working people that earn every ounce of that freedom and prosperity, and who don't act that way. Problem is, due to their natural common sense and manners, they aren't the ones the rest of the world sees on camera. EH> It sometimes seems as if people are actively looking for something, EH> anything, to be offended at, and many go to ridiculous lengths to EH> find something trivial to nitpick. You are absolutely correct, and those groups of imbeciles often end up being heard as "the voice of America," not because they truly represent the majority, but merely because they are the ones doing the loud screaming and doing everything they can to be seen and heard. It's sickening. EH> Even worse are those who accommodate such nitpickers. Bravo!!! Absolutely correct.EH> That said, I don't take offense at somebody using the female pronoun as EH> generic, it's just as good for the purpose as the male one, which is the EH> default only by tradition, and keeping a tradition just for the sake of EH> keeping a tradition isn't enough justification to say that it is somehow EH> wrong.Minor disagreement, here. I'm a purist, and it does offend me. Not because I have dainty, easily offended sensibilities, but merely because I see it as just another ploy by the ones mentioned above. I see it as "them" attempting to destroy a work of art that I love, and their motives are insane, selfish, and not entirely sincere. And I wouldn't say it was just tradition. It's the finished craft, woven by a master, and changing a masterpiece, for whatever reasons, only diminishes and corrupts it. EH> I'll personally use the male pronoun for generic expressions because EH> that's the way I learned it and because it still is the accepted form, EH> while using 'she' is considered an oddity. Completely agree.EH> I'm something of a linguistical purist in some respects, but I realize EH> that languages change with the passage of time and some things that were EH> previously "forbidden" may become accepted...Sadly inevitable, but I don't have to like it. EH> ...and I don't have a problem with that. Eek! EH> It's the stuff like people substituting "possibul" for "possible" and EH> similar illiterate stupidity that send me through the roof... 99% of the time that just makes me ill, especially when I see a 45 year old black man who's a multi-millionaire rap star doing it because it's part of his image, and the kids all start copying him and don't bother to get a real education as a result, because they think it's cool to talk and write that way, and school isn't cool. I've seen the fallout of years of this, and the streets are now filled with absolute morons that never speak an original sentence, with every word and obligatory hand gesture being something drilled into them by this disgusting counter-culture. The remaining 1% that I don't mind is something that I taught myself a long time ago, and it has a purpose. I'm referring to typing phonetically where appropriate, for the purpose of infusing a little personality and a better, more accurate "feel" for the writer. When I write casual emails, I often "type as I speak" so that the inflection, tone, and mood can be conveyed. It could go too far, of course, but I've never allowed myself to do that, and over the years it's worked well for me and added a distinct flavor to my "speech" that people can see is distinctive to me. Heck, I've even had women tell me that "I type sexy" whatever the hell that means. LOL (Perhaps my little scheme has worked too well!) EH> ...not the minor things like whether to use he or she for genericEH> pronoun. That's not something that can be called butchering the English EH> language, not by a long shot.When compared to that I do see your point. <Chuckle> EH> Regarding women, some professions are seen as women's stuff largelyEH> because those were basically seen as the only jobs that could be EH> considered proper for women to do (so far as any jobs were), and those EH> troglodytic attitudes have taken a long time to disappear.Let's also not forget that there were times when vital jobs were done by men because women literally couldn't do them. They took sheer brute strength to do, and the women took care of many of the remaining duties. It wasn't sexist, it was just logic in action.EH> There's still a long way to go before they are completely eradicated, EH> but it's happening. Not fast enough for some people while others are EH> content with this pace... Call me old fashioned, or even something less dignified, but I'm one of those people that can see the differences beneath the skin, and am not upset or ashamed to be one side of a coin, so to speak. Men and women were made differently, not just physically, but in their psyches, mindsets, natural aptitudes, etc. We were designed to compliment each other, not to fight over who gets to do what task because we feel slighted that it's a given for the other gender. I watched my mother cook, clean, wash clothes, and maintain a household on a daily basis, for many years, and let me tell ya, it wasn't a walk in the park. It was damned hard, grueling work. But she rolled up her sleeves and did it every day, without a single complaint, and I was in awe of her determination and stamina. She wasn't very tall, and I was growing like a mutated tree, but all those soaked, heavy laundry baskets she carried out to the line every day gave those little arms enough strength to beat *me* at arm wrestling any day of the week. Whether it be man or woman, I respect a person that knows their strengths *and* limitations, and who isn't insulted that God made them the way they are for a purpose. Oh dear Lord, I really *do* want a girl like the girl that married dear old dad... How cliche. I need a drink. EH> ...but getting all PC about certain less significant things in EH> order to compensate for the more important stuff isn't the answer. Yeppers.EH> And now that I've more or less offended everyone here so far, feel free EH> to crisp me to a cinder. *dons flame-retardant body armor* ;-)Offended? Are you kidding me? I'm on the verge of proposing... <Chuckle> Best regards, Larry mailto:Kurgan@Fastmail.fm